Z Bracket Grooves

[Eric Goodell]

Howdy all! I'm new to the forum and woodworking, and have a tool question. I'm currently building a workbench, but once it's finished my first project will (probably) be a kitchen cart/island. In looking at ways to attach a tabletop to a base, I've found Z-brackets to be what looks like a simple option. My dilemma is, what tool is used to cut the grooves in the aprons to attach the z-brackets? Most tutorials I've seen involve power tools of some sort. My assumption is to use a router plane with a fence along the apron length, but is there any way to cut individual grooves with hand tools (only where the brackets are, not along the whole apron length)? Is mortising with a small chisel a practical option here?

Additionally, does anyone have advice on a way to do this relatively low cost? I've rehabbed an old #4 and #5 plane that were in pretty rough shape, so I'm not afraid of a little work. I was thinking a Stanley 71, but by the time I get the plane, a fence, and blades (if there are even any thin enough for this job), it looks like I'm spending about as much money as buying a new Veritas or LN router would cost. That is based on ebay prices, I can keep an eye out locally but am not holding my breath.

What's the deal with Stanley 71's being so pricey? You can get a #4 in pretty good shape for ~$25 that just needs a good cleaning, but a 71 with no blades is more like $90 + $50 for a fence and then whatever blades cost. I mean, the $25 Stanley #4 handily beats out a $200 Veritas #4 in a value contest in my book, but I'm not sure a $150 pieced together Stanley 71 beats out the $160-200 LN/Veritas routers. Is there some sort of magic with the old Stanleys I'm missing?

[Andy McKenzie]

If you just want a groove where the the clips will be, I'd suggest a chisel. It shouldn't take long, since you're basically just cutting a small mortise.

[Eric Goodell]

If you just want a groove where the the clips will be, I'd suggest a chisel. It shouldn't take long, since you're basically just cutting a small mortise.

Seems like a reasonable option. I see here: http://www.rockler.com/table-top-fasteners they list a groove width of 3/32". As I don't have a 3/32" chisel, will going wider hurt anything? It seems like the bracket SHOULD be pushed up against the top of the groove and width shouldn't matter, but I can imagine that a narrower groove might provide more reinforcement if the tabletop tries to bow up. Has anyone had issues using a wider groove with these sort of fasteners?

[Andy McKenzie]

Seems like a reasonable option. I see here: http://www.rockler.com/table-top-fasteners they list a groove width of 3/32". As I don't have a 3/32" chisel, will going wider hurt anything? It seems like the bracket SHOULD be pushed up against the top of the groove and width shouldn't matter, but I can imagine that a narrower groove might provide more reinforcement if the tabletop tries to bow up. Has anyone had issues using a wider groove with these sort of fasteners?

If you can, I'd get a 1/8" chisel and use that. The Irwin Blue Chip that WoodCraft sells seems to be decent quality, though I don't love the plastic handle.

[Eric Goodell]

If you can, I'd get a 1/8" chisel and use that. The Irwin Blue Chip that WoodCraft sells seems to be decent quality, though I don't love the plastic handle.

Sounds like a good option, thanks! Might give me a good excuse to make a trip down to the local(ish) Woodcraft this weekend and browse around a bit.

[Richard Line]

I've used Rockler's clips and they are easy to use. You're right, the clip wants to bear on the top surface of mortise, so set the mortise a bit low. With hand tools I've made a groove with either a plow plane (over kill) or sawing a groove if reasonable. For a small, stopped mortise, I'd drill a couple of small holes (1/16 or so) and chisel out the excess. The width isn't important, so fit the size to the chisel you have.

I've still have some of Rockler's metal clips, but I'm using shop made wooden clips now. Put a rabet/rebate along a piece of wood, then cut them off in the length you think will work, but first think about the grain orientation.

[Eric Goodell]

I've used Rockler's clips and they are easy to use. You're right, the clip wants to bear on the top surface of mortise, so set the mortise a bit low. With hand tools I've made a groove with either a plow plane (over kill) or sawing a groove if reasonable. For a small, stopped mortise, I'd drill a couple of small holes (1/16 or so) and chisel out the excess. The width isn't important, so fit the size to the chisel you have.

I've still have some of Rockler's metal clips, but I'm using shop made wooden clips now. Put a rabet/rebate along a piece of wood, then cut them off in the length you think will work, but first think about the grain orientation.

I saw a few mentions of wooden clips in my searches, I may try to make a few and see how it goes. I suspect with my relative lack of tools it may be more trouble than it's worth. Currently I have a standard set of 4 chisels, #4 and #5 planes, a couple of disston saws, and a veritas dovetail saw.

I was planning on trying out a hags tooth router for cleaning up the tenons on the workbench, maybe I can use that to make a rabbet and make a set of wooden clips with some scrap. I get the feeling eventually I'll end up with a proper router plane, I'm just trying to stall long enough that I can find an old one for a bargain. While I can afford the Veritas, I'm enjoying giving these old tools a purpose.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Eric and welcome to the Creek.

Wow, I didn't realize router planes have gone up that much since mine was purchased. Mine is a Sargent router. Looks like those have followed the Stanley routers in pricing.

I have attached a wooden base to mine which lifts the unit about 1/4". This allows the use of the LV blades without flipping the adjuster nut. There is an LV 3/32" blade.

My wooden base just follows the shape of the router. Some folks attach a base with square edges so it can be used against a batten.

jtk

[Darrell LaRue]

When I need to cut a small groove for something like this I used to use a chisel, but have switched to a quirk router. The router works fast, and is easy to use.

[Eric Goodell]

Howdy Eric and welcome to the Creek.

Wow, I didn't realize router planes have gone up that much since mine was purchased. Mine is a Sargent router. Looks like those have followed the Stanley routers in pricing.

I have attached a wooden base to mine which lifts the unit about 1/4". This allows the use of the LV blades without flipping the adjuster nut. There is an LV 3/32" blade.

My wooden base just follows the shape of the router. Some folks attach a base with square edges so it can be used against a batten.

jtk

Granted, those estimates were based on ebay "buy it now" prices, but even for that it still seems high. I'm going to keep browsing around and check out a few flea markets locally. Luckily (depending how you look at it) my free time is mostly occupied by a puppy, so who knows when I'll get to the table anyway. Not in a hurry = better deals to find.

When I need to cut a small groove for something like this I used to use a chisel, but have switched to a quirk router. The router works fast, and is easy to use.

Just had to google what a quirk router is. It appears to be quite the rare tool! At least now if I happen across one I'll know what it is.

[Jim Koepke]

Not in a hurry = better deals to find.

Patience and getting out early are two keys to getting the good deals.

Carrying a puppy around with you might also help.

jtk

[george wilson]

Those were called "buttons" in the old days,and may still be so called in England. I made mine out of hardwood,as is perfectly acceptable,as they were made in the old days,to hold the top on a large dining table I made for us.

No worry about the WIDTH of the groove. THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING,is to make sure that the edge of the groove,which the brackets will touch,is of such a distance from the table top that when you screw the brackets down,they pull the top down against the apron. I would not over tighten the brackets. Make them grasp the table top securely to the apron,yet not be so tight that they keep the table top from expanding and contracting with seasonal changes. They are an excellent and simple way to keep your table top from cracking.

I just cut a groove around the inside of my whole apron with the table saw. No need to spend hours individually chiseling away places for them.

[Eric Goodell]

Those were called "buttons" in the old days,and may still be so called in England. I made mine out of hardwood,as is perfectly acceptable,as they were made in the old days,to hold the top on a large dining table I made for us.

No worry about the WIDTH of the groove. THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING,is to make sure that the edge of the groove,which the brackets will touch,is of such a distance from the table top that when you screw the brackets down,they pull the top down against the apron. I would not over tighten the brackets. Make them grasp the table top securely to the apron,yet not be so tight that they keep the table top from expanding and contracting with seasonal changes. They are an excellent and simple way to keep your table top from cracking.

I just cut a groove around the inside of my whole apron with the table saw. No need to spend hours individually chiseling away places for them.

No table saw, so I figured chiseling individual slots might be easier than using a router on the whole apron.

So now the next question, if I use these button/grooves on all of the edges, won't the table top be loose and able to wiggle around relative to the apron? Do you secure the middle of the two ends to prevent that? As long as there's just one fixed point at each end in the middle, expansion shouldn't cause any problems correct?

[george wilson]

I'd put them about every 2 feet. along the apron lengthwise with the grain. At least one on each end. If your table is large,put 2 on each end,each spaced about 1/3 the way across.

No time to read the whole thread again to find out about your table's size.

My table is about 4+ feet wide and 6' long. No trouble with the top wriggling about. But,I did install the buttons so they are snug,but not too tight to let the top move in humidity changes.

[Richard Line]

I would use 2 buttons/clips on a 1 to 2 ft. wide edge, and a button every 12 to 18 inches on longer edges, with minimum of 4 buttons on a top. As George noted, the critical dimension is from the edge of apron to the near edge of the slot; this needs to be a bit less than the button's measurement.