How to fix / rehab a #4 Stanley Plane

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I told a neighbor that I would rehab and sell a hand plane that he owns. First, I removed some rust, flattened the back of the plane blade and sharpened it. I then tested it to see how it worked. In a word; HORRIBLE!

I am not sure if this was ever used correctly, the blade was upside down in the plane when I took it from him, and it would never have worked as configured. Also, the blade was very very dull. The back flattened pretty quickly.

The "bad" behavior:

I advanced the blade a bit at a time until it would just start to take a shaving. I would take a very very small shaving and then the blade would dig into the wood. This is a very well behaved piece of cherry and inch or two wide.

I did nothing to tune the chip breaker and I did not adjust the frog. The bottom is high at the front and back with at least a 0.007" gap in the middle (with my straight edge). Could this be the problem?

I know that I need to tune the chip breaker, but I don't think that is the problem here. To my eye, the gap between the blade and the plane mouth looked OK; not that I have much experience with this.

I have never used a plane this badly behaved.

Plane_01_smaller.jpg

[steven c newman]

Bring it over here, and I will help tune it up for you.

Paint colour is because it is a Cordovan model stanley put out in-between the Black Japanning and the ugly Blue periods...

Might take less than an hour to fix up.....

Bring it, and you on over here to Bellefontaine, OH.....anytime.

[Jim Koepke]

The bottom is high at the front and back with at least a 0.007" gap in the middle (with my straight edge). Could this be the problem?

Andrew, this is exactly the problem. The blade has to be advanced enough to take a shaving through the gap. Once the blade engages it starts to dig and flexes the casting. I had a block plane like this once. It was possible to make it into a useable plane. It was never a great plane.

Do you have a belt sander?

I bet Steven does.

jtk

[Stew Denton]

Andrew,

Take the plane apart and look at the bottom of the frog and the bed where the frog seats on the plane. At least some of the late Stanley planes do not have these two areas milled flat, they are just left as cast. If that is the case, it will be very difficult to get the plane to perform well.

In fact one of the well known writers that teaches classes, and I can't remember for certain which one it is, has mentioned in one of his articles, that he has had folks in his classes that have brought such planes, with the seat and bottom of the frog not milled, and he has never been able to get one to perform as well as would be desired. Thus, the reason for checking that location.

Stew

[Eric Schubert]

Funny you mention this issue, as I have a plane that does this exact same thing. I even tried using it again today, and it either takes little to no shaving or just digs right in and chatters something fierce, leaving gouges in the wood.

Stew, thanks for the tip. I'll take a look at that area. Is there a way to fix this issue? Just mill/file the seat and frog bottom flat? Or is there no way to salvage these planes?

ETA: Sure enough, the plane I mentioned above is not milled flat on either surface... *sigh* At least now I know why it's been such a pain to use.

I have a second plane that is only so-so. It has a nice PM-V11 blade in it, which helps. But, it's still not as nice as I'd like. I flattened the bottom and both sides on a surface grinder, and the seat/frog areas were milled flat previous to my buying this plane. But, I think those surfaces aren't very pristine. The milling looks a little rough. Maybe a quick file will smooth them out and help..?

[steven c newman]

Hmmm, I do have a later Stanely model in the shop....Made in England......funny blue colour. was made AFTER the Cordovan's 3 year run.
IMAG0284.jpg
Fresh out of the shipping bag, no less
IMAG0287.jpg
Not the best looking bed for the frog....uneven paint thicknesses....we have ways..
IMAG0288.jpg
I run this through. It takes away the paint, and any rough stuff under the paint.

Worked on the frog a bit, as well..
IMAG0286.jpg
Set the frog in so that that little ramp thing is coplanar to the frogs face. Ne need to advance the frog any more than that. Mated the chipbreaker to the stock iron.
IMAG0290.jpg
Doesn't show any signs of chattering, either. The ONLY item that got changed out?
IMAG0294.jpg
That plastic knob just had to go.

Trying to see IF I have a shot of the sole..
IMAG0291.jpg
Does NOT take all that long to do, just a bit of elbow grease. Didn't even need a fancy new iron, stock one was just fine.
Cordovans were from 1967 -69. This English one was from the mid 70s.I think. It is still in the shop, if the OP wants to try it out...
BTW: that slab being planed is White Oak......

[Stew Denton]

Hi Eric,

I have at least one plane, and maybe two, that has the exact same problem. One is a #3 Dunlap. I have thought about heavily cambering the iron and using it for the equivalent of a scrub plane, but it might give exactly the same problem even for use as a scrub plane. I have some old Stanley Bailey planes that are in fairly ratty condition, ones I didn't give much for, that are much much better planes than is the Dunlap.

For that reason, I've about come to the conclusion that I should take off maybe the iron and possibly the chip breaker off of the Dunlap to save for parts, and pitch the rest. I don't even want to give it away, knowing that if I do give it away, that it will only give the next owner grief.

As to fixing the seat and bottom of the frog, I don't know. About the only thing I might try is to work the two spots over with a coarse double cut mill file, and see what I could do. The plane is certainly not worth paying anyone to mill the underside of the frog and the bed of the sole flat. Because of the ratty old Stanley Bailey planes I have, for example one has a crack, etc., it isn't worth messing with trying to fix the Dunlap.

Stew

[Eric Schubert]

Thanks, Stew. I don't know what someone, even a friend, would charge to mill those areas flat. But I suspect it would cost more than the plane is worth... I'll try the file and see how it goes. It can't get any worse.

[steven c newman]

Have to check that Dunlap out.....not all were made by Stanley.......happen to have one by Millers falls that is every bit as good as a Millers Falls No. 8 that I also have.....and that "Craftsman even got used the other day..
flat spot.jpg
And..while Sargent made ones were mainly sold as Fultons, depending on the contract to Sears, they also made Dunlaps and even Craftsman models....BTW: Sears got into a habit of using red paint....frogs, and lever caps.

Might check that chipbreaker as well...it might not fit all other planes, as Sargent and Stanley didn't match.

[steven c newman]

I do have a standing offer......I will refurb any plane shipped to me, as long as the return postage is included. The would be the only costs to the plane's owner. Round trip postage is all you'd need. Medium Flat rate box. toss the return label inside when it gets mailed. Turn around is maybe two days plus snail mail time.

Or, just out out and buy a Wood River or some other new plane.....

[Derek Cohen]

.... The "bad" behavior:

I advanced the blade a bit at a time until it would just start to take a shaving. I would take a very very small shaving and then the blade would dig into the wood. This is a very well behaved piece of cherry and inch or two wide.

I did nothing to tune the chip breaker and I did not adjust the frog. The bottom is high at the front and back with at least a 0.007" gap in the middle (with my straight edge). Could this be the problem?

I know that I need to tune the chip breaker, but I don't think that is the problem here. To my eye, the gap between the blade and the plane mouth looked OK; not that I have much experience with this.

I have never used a plane this badly behaved.

Plane_01_smaller.jpg

Hi Andrew

If the blade needs to be projected far to continue a cut in the middle of a board, and then is too advanced at the start of the board, assuming the board is flat, this sounds like the sole of the plane is not coplanar (the mouth is not touching the board).

Alternately, if the plane takes a cut after a little advancement, and then digs in, as you describe, the sole is not only not coplanar, but sounds to be rocking on the mouth.

The remedy is to lap the sole until it is coplanar at the toe, mouth and heel. This may be difficult to do by hand if the plane is "banana" shaped. It would need to be done by machine.

If there is slop in the frog, you will get chatter. Nevertheless, the plane will still cut equally at the start and the middle of the board. Further, this is not a symptom of a poorly set up chipbreaker - that controls depth of cut and tearout, neither issues at this point.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

The "bad" behavior:

I advanced the blade a bit at a time until it would just start to take a shaving. I would take a very very small shaving and then the blade would dig into the wood. This is a very well behaved piece of cherry and inch or two wide.

I did nothing to tune the chip breaker and I did not adjust the frog. The bottom is high at the front and back with at least a 0.007" gap in the middle (with my straight edge). Could this be the problem?

As others have said: Yes, the symptom you describe is consistent with a badly concave sole (and 7 mils is *bad*). You really want that spot just ahead of the mouth to be at least roughly in the same plane as the tip and toe.

Here's the thing: 7 mils is a lot, and that's going to take a long time to lap out by hand, and the only useful thing you're going to learn by spending all that time is to inspect planes before you offer to rehab them. I'd feel pretty bad for Steven if I were in your shoes and took advantage of his offer for something that nasty.

If this plane was mine and otherwise a "keeper" I'd be thinking hard about sending $40 to TableSaw Tom to make the problem go away.

[lowell holmes]

If I were faced with this issue, I would flatten the sole with my belt sander. After flattening, I would hand sand it with varying grits of wet or dry sandpaper until the sole was smooth again.

I have successfully modified slots on hand planes. I might modify the chip breaker if necessary. Sometimes the chip breaker has to be made to mate with the iron with no gaps.
I don't know about modifying the frog. If it has an issue, a file might help.

[steven c newman]

I have taken some like this
SDC12436.jpg
$5 Union #4 and rehabbed it back to..
SDC12442.jpg
Something a little bit better.
Turned out to be a Union No. 4c Type 2

[Eric Schubert]

That's a fantastic offer, Steven! Very generous of you.

I ended up going through my two planes and filed flat the seat and bottom of the frog. They're still not perfect, but WOW did that make a difference. At least they take decent shavings now...