Contributor
Please sir, let's keep politics out of this or you might be paid a visit by the moderatorsOriginally Posted by Keith Outten
The alternative is that you can form an organization to get the government to enforce safety rules and regulations in home shops. In time we will all have to register our table saws and ultimately the government will try to take them away
Contributor
For starters, i was the one defending.
It is quite obvious that we differ on the concept of what is safe practice; I do a lot of joinery on the table saw without the guard, i consider that i work safely, in a dangerous situation. Woodworking is dangerous, and some are not suited to it.
I have cut thousands of complex joints on the table saw, including all sizes ( from tiny to 5" deep) of bridle and halflap joints without incident in much the same fashion as the guy in the movie. If you know what you are doing and follow proper procedures there will be no problems. So why would i think that it is unsafe? It is not unsafe because you or any number of people say so.
Blades don’t have a mind of their own, they behave according to the laws of physics and are quite predictable as are the materials that you cut. So if your process is sound you need not be fearful of working close to blades.
And i have every right to post how i do my work as anyone else. It is not for me to determine the ability or lack thereof of the audience. And neither am i in any obliged to only show beginner processes. That is the freedom and the problem with the internet. It is information, good and bad, buyer beware. It is not divided up into beginners, intermediate and master class sections.
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Contributor
There is a lot of talk in this thread about the need for people to take responsibility for their own actions. Posting a "how to" video on youtube is an action, and taking responsibility for it means either not using, or being clear when we do use, techniques that require exceptional care or skill, are outside of best practices, or which are inherently dangerous. No law will force any of us to do that, but when we something in a broadcast informational or educational forum and we don't, we're being irresponsible.
You don't have to. If you're posting on youtube, you already know that your audience includes people who are pros, and other who are rank beginners.
Contributor
Maybe he does - although given the ubiquity of dangerous cuts in that video, I rather doubt he actually understands the risks he's taking. But even if he does, promoting those techniques as a way of promoting himself is utterly irresponsible. If he's a well known and followed "instructor" on youtube, then what he shows comes with an implied, but substantial endorsement of correctness. Knowing you're doing something wrong doesn't make it less wrong. Promoting it as right does make it more wrong, though.
Member
Again, he understands the risks. He's made handful (hah!) of videos explaining what kickbacks are, why it happens, what HE DOES to keep himself safe, etc. etc. etc. He's documenting how he builds the clamp--it's literally in the video title. The long-time viewers does know, but those that just see his latest videos are understandably freaking out. If John Heisz has to put a disclaimer each time he make a cut, then his video would simply be filled with warnings every 5 seconds.
I mean... it's very similar to watching another great channel called "Tips from a Shipwright". The guy puts out videos of himself and his assistants hand making boats--it's his trade for 50 years or so, probably, so he know various techniques with power tools that'd give us nightmares. Yet he can do things like use a circular saw without a guard to hand cut a long board to size, because he is comfortable with it and has proven to have done it for years.
At the end of the day, it's really up to us to understand what's safe and proper, and what we can handle.
Contributor
I get your point, and that you're a long time viewer/fan of his, but don't you think this practice is a disservice to a novice who could only conclude that these practices are sound for everyone? Some of what's going on in that video is not just dangerous, but recklessly dangerous.
I've taken some hands on woodworking classes with well known instructors and what I've noticed them doing is "dialing up" their own personal safety precautions during the class to set a safe example to the students. I realized this when I got to class early one morning and the visiting instructor was prepping some parts, working much faster and closer to blades than he was doing when the class was present and watching. I thought this was super responsible.
To work dangerously under the justification of one's experience is one thing, but to demonstrate it to others for imitation is another.
Safety is non-negotiable in woodworking.
Last edited by Edwin Santos; 03-06-2018 at 1:03 PM.
Contributor
Come on you guys!
No guards, OMG! Some here believe it is reckless to use anything but a Sawstop table saw. And that you must never get your hands closer to the blade than a 1-foot long push stick will allow. That every single youtube video must be geared to the lowest common denominator--someone who has never run a saw.
Take a deep breath. Unclench your glutes. Watch how experienced professionals do it.
"Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."
[OP]
Member
Youtube should create categories of woodworking videos, including:
1) Watch how experienced professionals do it.
...and
2) Watch how experienced professionals hurt themselves.
Simon
Contributor
3 minutes into the video the guy is ripping a board that is so badly cupped you could use it as a rocker. The only reason it didn't lead to a messier outcome is that his saw was too wimpy to power through the resulting bind and throw the board around. Professionals use their tools properly, and respect them.
The guy is a menace to anyone trying to learn good woodworking skills, not a professional.
Member
He shows a clever technique for flipping boards over as they go through the planer at 3:30.
[OP]
Member
He set the planer to cut 1/2" on each pass!
How did I know?
For him, nothing mattered -- not even shop safety -- as long as it got the job done! So, 1/2" it went.
Simon
Contributor
Yah, we've argued safety between the Pros and hobbyists many times and we usually don't agree. The world looks different when you do a task every day. I'm not going to try to convince a Pro that I'm right and he's wrong. But the world also looks different after you or an employee gets hurt. I know 2 Pros who have each suffered saw accidents and permanent impairment. Injuries do happen and I wish the author of that video had included a subtitle that clearly said the equivalent of "Professional driver. Don't try this at home." I think he is inadvertently misleading people into thinking what he does is safe. YMMV.
Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 03-06-2018 at 7:39 PM. Reason: Clarify
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
“If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”
Contributor
Is he the one that made the kickback video. Holding a piece if wood with a push block to intentionally turn it into the back of the blade. A very dumb thing to do.
Aj
Contributor
And it is the responsibility of a teacher to never lose sight of what his or her pupils can handle. This guy has set himself up as a teacher, and is therefore irresponsible, as he clearly either doesn't know or doesn't care that he is instructing people to do things that are inherently dangerous.
I would apply the following test to anything I would demonstrate on a youtube channel: if you were a shop owner held morally and financially responsible for your employee's safety, would you build this technique into your production processes? If the answer is "no," then I don't see how you can justify it on a youtube channel that is likely to be viewed by thousands of untrained individuals who may well mimic your techniques.
[OP]
Member
That sure is a reasonable test.
The last place I worked was pretty lenient with staff misconduct (being late for work. etc.), but when it came to shop safety, it had zero tolerance. Not only that, every minor incident had to be recorded and reported...the safety culture there was etched into your mind. Elsewhere, I know some industrial employers would fire their employees for repeated or serious safety violations.
Simon
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