California to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2035

[Anthony Whitesell]

Interesting that no one pointed out the obvious. California, notorious for rolling black outs, is now going to mandate more stuff to be plugged into their over tax power grid.

The two issues I have with electric cars are:
1. Range. The only car that is remotely feasible for me is a Tesla. They are the only one that has the range to get me to and from some of my customer sites. The others don't have the range, and the few customers that have chargers are for employees only.
2. Cost. There is NO WAY and electric car will cost me less on ownership than my Nissan Altima (last car) or Honda Accord (current car). Both were/are 10 years old and 250k miles. Looking at cost of repairs, besides brakes and tires, the Altima got a steering rack and tie rod ends, CV axle, two belts and 8 spark plugs and 3 crank position sensors. Approximate total $585. The Honda Accord has gotten a timing rebuild due to design flaws mostly (timing chain, tension, guides, VTC actuator and solenoid) for a total cost of $800. What else for the Accord, oh yeah, nothing. Let's just call it an $1k for 250k miles. That $0.004 per mile. Think I can get 250k out of a Tesla, or any other electric car? I doubt it and I'm not willing to take the chance.

Both of those cars are standard transmision. Why? Reliability. When I shopping for the Accord, I asked at the Nissan dealer. I asked if the automatics were as reliable. "Absolutely" the salesman replied. So I challenged him. Include a $0 deductible, lifetime, nontransferrable warranty on the crate transmission and you have a sale. "We can't do that" he replied. My response "Well then I guess they aren't as reliable are they?" That ended the conversation. I purchased the standard transmission Accord. Npth cars were/are 250K miles on the original clutch and no maintenance to the transmissions.

[Doug Garson]

Interesting that no one pointed out the obvious. California, notorious for rolling black outs, is now going to mandate more stuff to be plugged into their over tax power grid.

The two issues I have with electric cars are:
1. Range. The only car that is remotely feasible for me is a Tesla. They are the only one that has the range to get me to and from some of my customer sites. The others don't have the range, and the few customers that have chargers are for employees only.
2. Cost. There is NO WAY and electric car will cost me less on ownership than my Nissan Altima (last car) or Honda Accord (current car). Both were/are 10 years old and 250k miles. Looking at cost of repairs, besides brakes and tires, the Altima got a steering rack and tie rod ends, CV axle, two belts and 8 spark plugs and 3 crank position sensors. Approximate total $585. The Honda Accord has gotten a timing rebuild due to design flaws mostly (timing chain, tension, guides, VTC actuator and solenoid) for a total cost of $800. What else for the Accord, oh yeah, nothing. Let's just call it an $1k for 250k miles. That $0.004 per mile. Think I can get 250k out of a Tesla, or any other electric car? I doubt it and I'm not willing to take the chance.

Both of those cars are standard transmision. Why? Reliability. When I shopping for the Accord, I asked at the Nissan dealer. I asked if the automatics were as reliable. "Absolutely" the salesman replied. So I challenged him. Include a $0 deductible, lifetime, nontransferrable warranty on the crate transmission and you have a sale. "We can't do that" he replied. My response "Well then I guess they aren't as reliable are they?" That ended the conversation. I purchased the standard transmission Accord. Npth cars were/are 250K miles on the original clutch and no maintenance to the transmissions.

Just curious, did you get the warranty you described on the manual transmission?

[Jim Matthews]

That article refers to vehicle fires on the road, not parked.

1 of the 8 reported fires was on a highway in California.

There are 8 fires reported in your linked article, over 4 years - WORLDWIDE.

150 CAR FIRES A DAY IN THE USA ALONE.

And you’re ignoring the much greater difficulty of putting out a high-energy-battery-fed fire, that I pointed out earlier, and is at the heart of my concern.

Which is so rare, lightning strikes are more common.

985,000 Teslas on the road, today. How many garage fires? TWO

[Brian Elfert]

I know a few people who have electric vehicles and they have no fear of storing them in their garage. I have strongly considered an electric vehicle several times and I have no fear of putting one in my garage. Yes, lithium batteries have a lot of energy in them, but gasoline also has a lot of energy in it too.

The media reports on electric car fires because they don't happen that often and it attracts viewers/readers. There are also a lot of skeptics about electric cars. Media doesn't report much on gasoline car fires because they happen so often and don't really attract readers/viewers. Most people just accept gasoline car fires as a fact of life that happens to some people.

[Bob Turkovich]

"Magnetti Marelli has made several announcements to the Italian press about supplying electronics and possibly motors for the SI-EVT transmission."

https://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmi...automatic.html

I have no doubt you have more experience in this field; I have none. That said, FIAT is not known for reliable products.

The Nissan van is not currently available in the US, but does have a mature parts bin behind it if it arrives on out shores.

To be clear, I drove a plug in hybrid three trouble free years - but prefer the relative simplicity of a purely electric drivetrain.

Toyota disproves my reluctance to recommend the layout - but I'm old enough to remember breaker point distributors and front drum brakes.

My contention is with your statement that the Pacifica Hybrid is "largely derived from FIAT research". Your linked article disputes that.

Per the article: "FCA worked closely with technical consulting firm Ricardo to develop the transmission...and that the design is based on previous patented units by Timken with Ricardo". Ricardo is a UK-based company with significant resources located in the US, particularly in Auburn Hills, MI which is also home to FCA-Chrysler world headquarters including Engineering. Timken is located in Canton, OH.

Per the article, the transmission is assembled in Tipton, Indiana with gear and case machinery provided at a plant in Kokomo, IN. Both facilities are owned by FCA-Chrysler.

Re: "transmission electronics and motors are likely to be provided by Magneti Marelli." It is true that up until 2019, MM was owned by FCA-Fiat. MM is a major worldwide supplier of automotive components with manufacturing facilities in the US. I do not know if that is where their Pacifica parts are manufactured. In 2019, they ranked 28th in the world in auto component sales. They were then bought out by CK Holdings and merged with Calsonic Kansei (a Japanese company) that was at the time ranked 29th.

The MM parts are only a small part of the transmission assembly (albeit key parts). The transmission is just one of multiple unique systems for a hybrid.

BTW, the Pacifica Hybrid is built in Windsor, Ontario.

There may have been some initial synergy between FCA-Chrysler and FCA-Fiat early in the design process but the Pacifica Hybrid was the design, development, quality and reliability responsibility of FCA-Chrysler, not FCA-Fiat. (Yes, Doug, that applies to the battery connection fire issue as well.) Correlating Chrysler vs. Fiat performance is sketchy as they are two completely separate organizations.

IMO your statement of "largely derived from FIAT Research" is a significant exaggeration.

Re: your last comment wrt Toyota. I'm not sure what you meant but if it's what I think it is, you and I could have an interesting PM conversation about it (without hijacking this thread).

[Jim Matthews]

My contention is with your statement that the Pacifica Hybrid is "largely derived from FIAT research". Your linked article disputes that.

IMO your statement of "largely derived from FIAT Research" is a significant exaggeration.

Re: your last comment wrt Toyota. I'm not sure what you meant but if it's what I think it is, you and I could have an interesting PM conversation about it (without hijacking this thread).

It's a legitimate objection - I don't work in the field and my deepest mechanical involvement with these drivetrains is where to store the keyfob. That said, Italian electronics aren't my first choice in automobiles. There's plenty of documentation regarding QC problems since 2014.

As a consumer, I'm not alone in my skepticism of the Chrysler brand since merging with FIAT.

Perhaps the Pacifica is the bee's knees - I still wouldn't want to be first.

After all, my first hybrid was in 2018 - when the Prius has been available since 2000.

"In just the past year, recalls — not counting those for air bags, an area where scores of automakers continue to deal with fallout from defective Takata products — were announced for more than 8.3 million FCA vehicles in the United States. Those recalls covered everything from steering components to floor mats."

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/chrysler/2019/03/29/fiat-chrysler-quality-consumer-reports/3292743002/

[Anthony Whitesell]

Just curious, did you get the warranty you described on the manual transmission?

I never considered to ask. I have NEVER had a standard transmission fail. I have only EVER had to work, repair, or replace automatic transmissions. To give scope on my EVER, 30 years and 1.2 million miles on vehicles I own/owned.

[Jim Matthews]

To give scope on my EVER, 30 years and 1.2 million miles on vehicles I own/owned.

That's double the national average. Is this highway driving? That many gear changes on local roads would lead to frequent clutch plate, throw out bearing and left knee replacement.

[Doug Garson]

I never considered to ask. I have NEVER had a standard transmission fail. I have only EVER had to work, repair, or replace automatic transmissions. To give scope on my EVER, 30 years and 1.2 million miles on vehicles I own/owned.

Fair enough, I've never had either type of transmission fail but I only have about 1/2 that many miles over 50 years and about 7 vehicles.

[mike stenson]

I never considered to ask. I have NEVER had a standard transmission fail. I have only EVER had to work, repair, or replace automatic transmissions. To give scope on my EVER, 30 years and 1.2 million miles on vehicles I own/owned.

I have. They can and do fail. I've seen several blow gears in the last few years actually.

for the record, I prefer manuals. However, I do so because I prefer to drive them. They are not, however, bulletproof.

[Doug Garson]

Course if you go electric, no transmission to worry about.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I have. They can and do fail. I've seen several blow gears in the last few years actually.

for the record, I prefer manuals. However, I do so because I prefer to drive them. They are not, however, bulletproof.

Manual transmissions are far more bullet resistant than automatic transmissions.

[Anthony Whitesell]

That's double the national average. Is this highway driving? That many gear changes on local roads would lead to frequent clutch plate, throw out bearing and left knee replacement.

Closer to 3x. I couldn't imagine the hours required to rack up that many miles on two-lane roads. Yes mostly highway driving.

[Doug Garson]

Manual transmissions are far more bullet resistant than automatic transmissions.

There's your problem, stop shooting them.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Course if you go electric, no transmission to worry about.

Lots of other things to worry about. Which is half of my point. The other half is the ability for me to perform the repairs myself. I'm sorry, but it does not take a certified Tesla technician to replace plastic lug nut covers (as noted by Rich Rebuilds on YouTube during a recorded call while trying to get a set of them). If I lived in Massachusetts, I would be voting Yes, no question on the Right to Repair article.

Rhetorical question. Do you think I would be able to get the same cost of ownership from and an all electric powered vehicle as I do from the standard transmission gas powered vehicle?