Locked in whether you like it or not: yet another sharpening thread

[Tony Wilkins]

Didn’t want to put this on the freehand vs jig debate so…

There was a lot of talk about freehand being easier with a flat bevel ie no microbevel). I find this true with my Japanese tools. I keep a flat bevel on these as I was taught and find it easy to freehand them. As I was spending ten minutes looking for my angle setting jig*, I thought about that thread. But here;s my two problems. Firstly, I have a microbevel on many of my tools as I learned the Charlesworth method of sharpening and I don’t want to grind all of them to get rid of it. Bee, speaking of David (and Cosman) I have used the ruler trick on a lot of plane blades (even though in retrospect they had flat backs). I’m not even sure how to undo that easily.

so I guess I’ll putter along with what I have because it’s like momentum and I’m too lazy to change.

*it had fallen under the table

[Mike Henderson]

It wasn't clear to me whether the microbevel you mentioned was on the front of the bevel or on the back (ruler trick). On my tools, the microbevel on the front is tiny, so if I wanted to get rid of it it wouldn't take a lot of grinding to do so. But I use a microbevel on all my tools so I don't really have to grind all that off.

Mike

[Tony Wilkins]

It is a microbevel on the front and the ruler trick on the back.

[Jimmy Harris]

You can freehand a microbevel. Just align the blade so the bevel is flat against the stone or whatever, and then raise it 5° or whatever your microbevel is. The thing with sharpening is that you don't have to be exact. You just have to be consistent.

I don't usually use microbevels because I haven't found the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. However, there are a few instances where I will apply them, like on a mortise chisel with a steep primary bevel. I guess in theory I could grind a larger secondary bevel, but that's more work without enough payoff to make it worth my time. Either way, I have no issues whatsoever putting a microbevel on something freehand. I don't even use a ruler to do the "ruler trick". I freehand that as well. Freehand sharpening takes a bit more skill, but it's not THAT difficult to learn. Practice enough and you'll gain the muscle memory to easily hold the blade at a consistent angle while you work it. And that's all you need. Consistency.

The thing with sharpening is, there's not really a right or wrong way to do it. There is such a thing as a good and bad edge, however. But so long as the method you use gives you a good edge, then there's no reason to overthink it and make things more complicated just because some guy on the internet has a different opinion. Always trust what the edge of your blade tells you more than what a rando with a YT channel says.

[Tony Wilkins]

You can freehand a microbevel. Just align the blade so the bevel is flat against the stone or whatever, and then raise it 5° or whatever your microbevel is. The thing with sharpening is that you don't have to be exact. You just have to be consistent.

I don't usually use microbevels because I haven't found the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. However, there are a few instances where I will apply them, like on a mortise chisel with a steep primary bevel. I guess in theory I could grind a larger secondary bevel, but that's more work without enough payoff to make it worth my time. Either way, I have no issues whatsoever putting a microbevel on something freehand. I don't even use a ruler to do the "ruler trick". I freehand that as well. Freehand sharpening takes a bit more skill, but it's not THAT difficult to learn. Practice enough and you'll gain the muscle memory to easily hold the blade at a consistent angle while you work it. And that's all you need. Consistency.

The thing with sharpening is, there's not really a right or wrong way to do it. There is such a thing as a good and bad edge, however. But so long as the method you use gives you a good edge, then there's no reason to overthink it and make things more complicated just because some guy on the internet has a different opinion. Always trust what the edge of your blade tells you more than what a rando with a YT channel says.

I just don’t have the dexterity to be anywhere near consistent unfortunately.

[Derek Cohen]

Tony, in my view there are two ways to sharpen: freehand and using a guide. Both are legitimate. Ignore anyone who guilts you for using a guide, flat bevel, hollow grind, etc, etc. Just do what works for you - working wood is more important than the way the bevel looks.

if using a guide, the micro secondary bevel is your friend. The aim is always to minimise the amount of steel to hone, and honing a full bevel is not efficient (Jim Krenov used to hollow grind his Japanese chisels). A secondary bevel on a chisel may reduce its range of use (e.g. more difficult to ride the bevel), but this does not invalidate a sharp chisel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Hazelwood]

You don't actually have to be perfectly consistent to freehand. I think this is something that intimidates newbies- they assume the consistency of a guide is essential to getting a sharp edge, and if they can't match that consistency they won't get sharp.

If your angle wobbles a few degrees each stroke, it's not going to ruin your edge. All that will happen is you will be rounding the bevel (which is irrelevant for sharpness), and the final edge angle will be increased slightly; e.g. if you were aiming for 30 it might be 32 at the edge.

And holding a long tool like a plane iron or chisel, if you have good ergonomics with your setup you should be able to stay within a degree or two after just a little practice. Plane irons and chisels (unless very narrow) are the easiest tools to freehand - easy to hold, no curves to deal with. Just lock your wrists and go.

In my observation the biggest issue beginners have is simply not removing enough steel in the initial stage of honing, so that there is still damage and wear/rounding at the edge when they progress to finer stones. Just keep going on the coarse stone until you raise a big honking burr- that guarantees you have completed the job on the coarse stone. If you fail to do that, none of the finer stones are going to make it sharp. On the occasions where I sharpen something and it doesn't seem quite sharp enough, its always because I didn't do enough work on the coarse/medium stone. Never because my angle wobbles a bit.

[Ben Ellenberger]

You don't actually have to be perfectly consistent to freehand. I think this is something that intimidates newbies- they assume the consistency of a guide is essential to getting a sharp edge, and if they can't match that consistency they won't get sharp.

If your angle wobbles a few degrees each stroke, it's not going to ruin your edge. All that will happen is you will be rounding the bevel (which is irrelevant for sharpness), and the final edge angle will be increased slightly; e.g. if you were aiming for 30 it might be 32 at the edge.

And holding a long tool like a plane iron or chisel, if you have good ergonomics with your setup you should be able to stay within a degree or two after just a little practice. Plane irons and chisels (unless very narrow) are the easiest tools to freehand - easy to hold, no curves to deal with. Just lock your wrists and go.

In my observation the biggest issue beginners have is simply not removing enough steel in the initial stage of honing, so that there is still damage and wear/rounding at the edge when they progress to finer stones. Just keep going on the coarse stone until you raise a big honking burr- that guarantees you have completed the job on the coarse stone. If you fail to do that, none of the finer stones are going to make it sharp. On the occasions where I sharpen something and it doesn't seem quite sharp enough, it’s always because I didn't do enough work on the coarse/medium stone. Never because my angle wobbles a bit.

This! If you raise a burr and then remove, then polish an edge, it will be good enough for woodworking. You can always improve, and you can tell the difference between a sharp edge and a really really sharp edge, but you shouldn’t let sharpening intimidate you.

I generally use a guide, but I’m quick to just freehand when I’m in the middle of a project and just want to touch up a tool.

[Rafael Herrera]

Tony has indicated before that he has physical limitations. If a guide let's him get the edge sharpness he needs, that's the way to go.

Regarding the Charlesworth ruler trick. I think once you start using it, you're stuck with it. After you've raised a burr, you won't be able to remove it after you flip the blade unless you repeat the ruler trick or raise the blade manually to reach the apex. The last can potentially make that back bevel even more steep and require raising the blade even more in later sharpenings.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I'll also add that I find sharpening a large flat bevel to be trickier than freehanding a small secondary bevel. I have both western and Japanese tools, and I sharpen most of the westerns with a flat primary and small secondary bevel, and the Japanese I sharpen with a full flat bevel in the traditional way.

With a flat bevel the angle is easy to register, but its not as simple as setting the bevel flat on the stone. Especially with laminated blades like a Japanese chisel, most of the surface is soft and quickly cut by the stone, with only the area near the edge being hard and slowly cut. If you just keep even pressure on the bevel, the heel will be cut away more quickly than the tip, causing the angle of the whole bevel to become more acute. Over the coarse of a few sharpenings you might find the chisel becomes very chippy, and eventually you discover the bevel angle is now 25 degrees when it started out as 32. To avoid this you have to bias the pressure strongly towards the tip- basically like you are going to tip the chisel up to create a microbevel but stopping just short of actually tipping it. The heel of the bevel will touch the stone but with essentially zero force. It takes practice and a lot of concentration.

Related to this, you can get an awful lot of friction and suction from a flat bevel. On a large bevel like a kanna blade it can stop you in your tracks, especially on certain stones like a Shapton 5k, but most stones will do it to some degree. The way to mitigate is the same - keep pressure biased towards the tip. If you get the pressure just right it will work smoothly. I think it takes more practice and concentration than sharpening the small bevel with no angle registration.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Tony, if you want to remove the ruler trick bevel, you'll need to grind the edge of the blade back until its gone. The way Charlesworth demonstrated it, its width should be very minimal (~1/64"), so it would be doable by hand if you don't have a grinder. Although I don't think there's any reason to remove it if its been working well for you. Even if you want to freehand the bevel, you can still do the ruler trick.

[Jim Koepke]

you shouldn’t let sharpening intimidate you.

Considering how many different ways to sharpen people mention in one of these threads, the intimidating mystery leading to paralysis of analysis is trying to figure which is the correct way.

Don't think about that, because they are all correct in their own ways.

My way may not be a way that works for others. My choice was to keep it simple and not to try every trick in the book before being able to produce a sharp edge. My focus was on creating the cutting edge. Cambers, micro bevels, back bevels and other refinements were set aside to pay attention to what was taking place with the edge. My attention was given to the scratch pattern on the bevel.

Was it reaching the edge?

Without a mentor on the scene, we have to become our own instructor.

We have to be able to not only find our error, but we have to determine how to change the result.

Well, maybe that is a bit intimidating.

jtk

[James Pallas]

I learned from finish carpenters. Two sided carborundum course and fine. Spit or sometimes oil. There were arguments about spit, Beechnut, Snuff or plain. Strop on your belt tail, carpenter coveralls or hand. Good enough with some practice. Still good enough today. Maybe not for carving but close. Never knew a carpenter that carried a whole sharpening kit to a job site. They sharpened plane irons, chisels, pocket knives, utility knives all the same. Me too.
Jim

[Tom Trees]

A cheap knockoff Elcipse honing guide helps things first,
so you can get a feel of when the tip is on the hone, i.e getting your finger on the hone to feel that.
I use diamonds, one cheapie, and one good one.
That's after a fresh grind, or you'll be forever getting an edge.

After that, changing to freehand, so here's some tips for this...
To stop tipping about, and get a feel for the angle.
Try resting the iron on the hone, with the iron skewed by a large amount, (no honing yet)
Then try tipping the far corner, you may find at this 45 degree angle, that your wrist won't allow it within reason. (that may get you a feel for things, with a decent grip)

Now with a better idea of being consistent, I can mention some things which helped me.
I don't look at the bevel, but the back of the iron at arms length, with a white board behind.
What I'm looking at is the slighter than many might suggest, camber.
This tells me which side of the iron I should be focusing on.

Two tips here worth noting...
Understand that pushing an iron along the length of the hone, if skewing by not very much atall, will be much more tedious,
than if you were to keep the iron straighter, much like the way you'd use a honing guide, probably 3 times quicker.

The second tip, if having trouble with a fine camber, (say if wanting to make use of the cap iron)
then David's tip will get both sides of the iron consistent...I won't mention the super misleading term he's coined for that.
No leaning, nor tipping involved, but getting ones finger on the edge/hone, much closer than Cosman's close grip.
The material (corners) gets removed depending where a finger is, nowhere else.
(mentioning again, no leaning or anything else involved)

The result of this being a much better camber than others will show, from the usual YT guys who don't use the cap iron to its potential
evident by the straight shavings jumping out, (and not needing a hand)
and it'll be sharp after that.
(Yes there's more to the cap iron than that, the cap/chipbreaker/tomato/potato, being honed at least 50deg, and the mouth open)

Yeah, some will say, but the OP may not have asked for that, true it may be,
but my point being, focusing on the profile will make things sharp.
I do the same thing for chisels, or indeed very acute Crown marking knives.
The latter, being a good teacher of geometry too, i.e no skewing.

My 2 cents
All the best
Tom

[Jimmy Harris]

Sharpening can be its own hobby. And that might intimidate people, seeing how many people take it seriously. For example, let's take coffee. There are those who will spend thousands of dollars a year on new grinders, fancy machines, scales, doodads, and freshly roasted beans imported with overnight shipping. They'll use bottled water and spend 30 minutes preparing the perfect cup. And they love doing this. It's their hobby. But that doesn't mean that a guy shoveling some Folgers into a Mr. Coffee automatic drip machine can't enjoy his coffee too. And either approach gets the day started.

You don't have to make sharpening a hobby to enjoy a sharp blade for woodworking unless you want to. You can polish a blade to rival a surgical scalpel, but that level of sharpness gives no advantage to a woodworker, other than bragging rights. All you need is sharp enough to get the job done. You don't have to go down that rabbit hole unless you want to.

You don't need to take classes, watch videos, buy specialty tools or use so-and-so's method or whatever to sharpen a blade. You can if you want to. That's fine. But really, you just need to practice and figure out what works for you. If you don't know what sharp feels like, but a utility knife. They come pre sharpened. And be prepared to mess some blades up while you're figuring it out. Don't panic if you do. Once you figure it out, those blades can be fixed.

To this day, I'll encounter different blade designs where I'll have to relearn how to sharpen and teach myself a new method. A new way to hold the stone or pass the blade or whatever. Take it slow. Focus. Stay consistent. I can get it done. Because sharpening anything is all about understanding how sharpening works and how to use what you have available to achieve that goal. It is really simple, if a bit physically difficult sometimes. But it is not complex. Humans have been sharpening stuff since at least 3300 B.C. It doesn't have to be hard, unless you make it hard. So don't make it hard on yourself. Just practice and learn from your mistakes. You are your own best teacher. Take advantage of that. Don't try to take the shortcut, because that's how you get lost.