A Personal Question? How much do you charge?

[Dan Oliphant]

Dave, thanks, I missed that.

[Walt Pater]

[QUOTE=tod evans]..at the end of the week do you really see that money?

No. I don't, and couldn't, bill out at $50/hr, but last week was pretty good. Watch me cry as I type this.

Incoming:
$2035.00- Current job
$500.00- Materials Deposit for another job
$650.00- Couple days' at another job- finally paid.
Equals $3185.
Minus
($400.00) payout to helper
($100.00) -first invoice above forgot trans. reimbursement
($237.00)-second invoice's job's materials were higher than
estimated
($605.00)-truck insurance payment
($1405.00)- get truck fixed and get new tires
($316.00)- DAYCARE
Equals ($3063)

What's left, $122? YIPPEEE!!!!! I'M BUYING!!!!!!!!!

Now, I'll get some of that back, and my truck (paid for, '01 GMC) rarely needs that kind of work, but it gives you an idea of a week in the life of a hard-workin' finish carpenter.

[Dev Emch]

OK Dev, you have received quite a few responses from us, now, how does this info compare with what YOU CHARGE, AND HOW YOU ESTIMATE A JOB!!!!!
To this point in the thread I have noticed the info is only going one way.

Check out the post right above yours. I think we had posts flying in space at the same time.

[Dev Emch]

Hey Dev, I hate to tell you this, but you might be showing your age a tad with an example such as you used above. Times- they have changed from when you drove what you could afford. The guy with the econo box or Chevy car might just have paid cash for their vehicles......the guy driving the Mercedes .......could very well have over-extended himself and has 1001 Ways How to Cook Hamburger open on his counter-top. Just take a look at some of the pretty high priced vehicles parked outside Walmart.
Is it just me, but I find it is really puzzling as to why two of the lowest per hour rate guys are also, IMO, two of the very best woodworkers/craftsmen here. Man - am I in good company or what because I don't charge anywhere near what some of you are. I have a decent shop......with a couple of good tools.....nothing spectacular but certainly workable. I have been doing this for enough years as to have a pretty good idea with several different aspects of good craftsmanship but no way could I justify charging anywhere near $50 or $60 an hour. Granted - local does play a big part - no argument there but come on.......there are alot of hobbiest just learning the business themselves and they are actually charging and getting that? I am going back to make my peanuts for the day and pout!!

You are absolutely right. I know one guy who wears old blue jeans, a dirty CAT hat, has white hair and over 250,000 miles on his pick up truck. He also duct taped a pair of shoes back together and heats his home with two 100 year old massive pot belly stoves. He also graduated in civil engineering with a 3.95 GPA and worked in a few real estate projects. We stopped wondering about his net worth after it past 5 million. Indeed the guy with the benz is always two payments in front of the repo man. Your right about that.

The reason I asked this question is simple. First, I find that preparing estimates for unkown territory akin to asking how long is a piece of string? Its hard! Unless you have done project X three or four times in the past, you dont have an accurate bearing. I guess writing everything down on 3x5 cards and filing them helps on future jobs. That is what chris Becksvort does. Every job has its own 3x5 card with hours invested, material consumed, cost of material and hardware and any relavent notes. I think this may be the way to go.

The other thing is per hour price. I and everyone else pushing 50 dollars and more per hour may be fooling ourselves. The difference is I admit it. Admit that you dont low ball the jobs in the hours needed column partly because your embarassed to follow through on a full bid. Esp. if you overshoot the time investment due to a low ball in the first place. Also, you low ball to get the job when your running a bit lean. If you have three or four jobs pending, your less prone to low ball.

So maybe its a better idea and a more simple idea to charge say $35 dollars per hour and then adhere to the time invested religously as opposed to charging $60 dollars per hour but then shaving hours off the bill to stay in budget. You worked the time, you should get paid for the time.

[Aaron Koehl]

I agree with Dave....although high quality cabinet work is bring huge prices in this area...it is really supply and demand...there are tons of people with high end homes being built..

If you don't take te effort to make your work special then you are going to be compared to "Room and Board" , "Ethan Allen" and even Ikea... It is too easy for someone to go out and buy average looking stuff at cheap prices ...that will always be a difficult arena to play in.

I always thought Todd Burch had the best explanation on his site for pricing custom work- it really cuts down to breaking out of the mass-produced mentality. The greatest challenge is getting the customer to realize that some of these prices just aren't really that high when the items aren't mass-produced.

[Keith Christopher]

[quote=Walt Pater]

..at the end of the week do you really see that money?

No. I don't, and couldn't, bill out at $50/hr, but last week was pretty good. Watch me cry as I type this.

Incoming:
$2035.00- Current job
$500.00- Materials Deposit for another job
$650.00- Couple days' at another job- finally paid.
Equals $3185.
Minus
($400.00) payout to helper
($100.00) -first invoice above forgot trans. reimbursement
($237.00)-second invoice's job's materials were higher than
estimated
($605.00)-truck insurance payment
($1405.00)- get truck fixed and get new tires
($316.00)- DAYCARE
Equals ($3063)

What's left, $122? YIPPEEE!!!!! I'M BUYING!!!!!!!!!

Now, I'll get some of that back, and my truck (paid for, '01 GMC) rarely needs that kind of work, but it gives you an idea of a week in the life of a hard-workin' finish carpenter.

I still think that is considered a profit. Think where you'd be without it.

I do business analysis daily. in then end it's all about three things in the words of MAlcom Forbes

never lose money
never lose money
never lose money

[Reg Mitchell]

Well....I do it as a hobby for now. I have been following this thread and it is very educational for me since I do one day want to do it as a liveing.
What I did find intresting is that the exchange of information was honest and stright forward which I took as gentalmen with integrity. I was impressed, which doesn't make a hill of beens to your guy's, but something that doesn't happen too often.
This is the big reason I keep returning to this fourm and listen to what is said.
Thanks Guys

[Mike Parzych]

Someone else mentioned location as a key factor. I live somewhat near the Twin Cities and one of the millwork shops I get some lumber from is $40 - for relatively simple work. They do a lot of stair treads/risers. More complex work such a furniture building would be about $50 per hour. I think you have to take your cue from local shops.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I work in an area of Dallas where the people are mostly out to save money. On built-ins, I get $250-275 per day rate. The deck & pergola jobs pay $300-350 a day. I mark up the materials an average of 20% on both.

[Walt Pater]

[QUOTE=Keith Christopher]

I still think that is considered a profit. Think where you'd be without it.

I do business analysis daily. in then end it's all about three things in the words of MAlcom Forbes

never lose money
never lose money
never lose money

($506.00)-LOML's car insurance
($280.31)-Mo' materials, & a post-it note to check the price of Durock
before I order it next time for s'rock subs
($36.45)- gallon of titebond III and some SS screws
($309.83)-elec. bill, residential & last shop space I rented
($60.00)- gas today
($22.39)- #40 propane
($3.50)- coffee and two slices, eaten while travelling between jobs
($ 12" Forrest Chopmaster)-arrived at dealer, don't know the cost
(Cost of being your own boss)- priceless

My bank account is on cruise control: I put money in there and it spends itself.

It keeps on going, and going and going...

[Bob Kloes]

I have been making furniture for over 20 years. I think I am worth the same as a mechanic or plumber. I have skills and talents the same as the next guy. I charge 50$ an hour and add 25 to 50% to my material, plus profit. I think woodworkers as a whole undervalue themselves. Just because I do for a living what others see as a hobby or funtime, does not mean I should make less then the next person. I am tired of hobbiests saying that professionals overcharge for what we do. I don't complain what it costs to get my vehicles fixed . It is what it is. I value people who work with their hands and minds. What gets me are the guys who are paid well for what they do, complaining about what we do and charge. If the weekend warriors think they can make things better then us and do it cheaper, then go for it. I have costs that have to be paid like any other business. Sorry for the rant. I just get tired of unjust comparisons. Just because I get to do what others wish they could, does that mean I should be paid less? Bob

[Jay Knoll]

When I was in the consulting business, we billed travel expenses at cost to our clients. You coudn't control airfare or hotel prices, so if they changed, the clients understood that the cost would vary from the estimate.

Can't you estimate material costs and then bill the client for the actual amount (substantiated by receipts of course)?

My boat yard charges by the hour for work, adds material costs and then adds a 10% surcharge to cover "consumable items -- thinners/rags/sandpaper etc." to each job.

I guess it just depends on how specific you want to be with your customers,

I spoke to a friend of mine who is doing finish carpentry and he says that he tells his customers, I bill by the hour and work efficiently, if I say I think that a job will take 2 days I will do my best to complete it in that amount of time. I will only bill you for my actual hours, they could be more or less than that amount. If you want a fixed fee, I will quote you a higher cost to reflect the risk that you are asking me to take.

It seems to be working for him, he said that he is booked solid for the next two months and is telling prospects that he won't even quote jobs until the middle of March.

Of course this could be a reflection of local market conditions, things are so busy here that people can't get competent guys for the smaller jobs, the general contractors have them all tied up on mega mansions and big developments, so the independent guys who deliver a quality job are doing real well.
Jay

[Byron Trantham]

Well I have been "in business" for about 7-8 years. My pricing approach is SWAG! especially in the beginning. As the years have passed, I have had enough repeat work (similar items) that have allowed me to more accurately price. Every job though, is a one of a kind event. I keep spreadsheets and CAD drawings for every job. The spreadsheets have three tabs; Quote, Actual; and Invoice. I quote the job and then enter what I ACTUALLY spent (on materials) for the job. Once the job is finished I look back to see how close I was on the labor estimate. I also have a small picture album of earlier work and a web site with more detail. Sometimes this helps. Most of my customers can't be bothered with the web site. They want they want and don't care what I did in the past.

[Steve Wargo]

... If I lived in a high cost area, woodworking wouldn't be a viable way to make a living.
Rob Millard

Oh Rob... You couldn't be more incorrect.

[Rob Millard]

Oh Rob... You couldn't be more incorrect.

Steve,

If I ever have to find out, I hope you are right.
Rob Millard