sawstop FUD

[Wayne Watling]

You know, what's funny is the furor this saw has caused. Lots of people (like me) would not consider buying a table saw without the technology. Lots of other people are screaming, "over my dead body!" But...

When the time comes to buy a table table saw many if not most of these people will buy a SawStop or something similar if the price is reasonable. Right now, it's easy for the naysayers to say "No" now. No cost either way. And many are justifying why their current saw is "perfectly safe if used properly".

When decision-time comes, SawStop WILL be on their minds. They KNOW it exists. Then, all their moral and ethical arguments against SawStop will start loosing their appeal. They'll look at their fingers and say, "Hmmm... What happens IF the worst happens?!? I don't like this SawStop guy, but... Day-am, it's my fingers we're talkin' about here!"

It's like this every time new technology comes along. Iconoclasts scream "Never!" In-place businesses with huge investments in old technology mount big campaigns decrying the new technology. Salesmen who get behind-the-scenes spiffs push the old stuff. Pretty soon, the industry starts announcing new "safety" products - some good; some bogus. Gradually it gets sorted out and products incorporate the new technology.

It will be fun for the next 5-10 years. But I have NO doubt that the virtually all table saws sold will have SawStop-like technology within 10 years. Maybe 5 years.

Dan.

Yes Dan, over my dead body and PURELY out of principle. I'd rather pay 4 times more for a european slider than let 1 dime get into his pocket and yes I have put my money where my mouth is.
The money hungry patent attorney took the wrong route in my opinion and is now offering himself as an expert witness in lawsuit which could establish some sort of precedent or ruling for the SS technology. As I mentioned in a previous thread he is also filing patents on many derivations of the technology which makes it difficult for any machine manufacturer to create a simular system. Okay, no laws are being broken but we dont have to like or agree with what is being done and I don't.

As has been said countless times very few are disputing the quality of the machine and even the technology (although there is still some doubt in my mind regarding a certain kick-back scenario). What is in doubt is the methology of the marketer by attempting to force every hobbist woodworker to pay an 8% fee on tablesaws and whatever else he can adapt his gaget to.

Best Regards.

[Donnie Raines]

And my comments:

[Matt Moore]

looks like the Sawstop won't stop.....it just keeps going

Yep and it helps the SawStop company every time.

[Dan Clark]

Yes Dan, over my dead body and PURELY out of principle. I'd rather pay 4 times more for a european slider than let 1 dime get into the pocket of Gass and yes I have put my money where my mouth is.

Are you planning to buy a table saw or just talkin' principle. If you're not buying a saw now, I'd be curious to see how you feel when you have to make a decision for a new saw. Enquiring minds want to know.

Have a nice day,

Dan.

[Randal Stevenson]

I am going to jump in for a second. I know people do not like the way the patent holder is doing things, but he is using his expertese, in a system that is so messed up, as to not only allow, but encourage this.
You guys should really watch the stuff on patent law in your papers, and check out how messed up it is. Apple got nailed by a patent law lawsuit, for something that they had been doing for at least a year before the patent had been filed (Creative verse Apple). It involved the interface of the Ipod. That is probably one you have heard about as an example.

Between things like that, and the lack of people taking personal responsibility these days, and our litigous nature it's all factoring in.
If he were turned down by other manufacturers, and he went on to produce the saw on his own and just try to drive the competition into the ground, this wouldn't keep being posted. He is using a broken system to the best of his ability (better knowledge then us), we should push for the system being fixed then, instead of complaining.

[John Bailey]

And my comments:

Good one Donnie!!

John

[Andrew Shaber]

Hey sorry, I didn't mean to stir the pot so much. I haven't been on this forum for 8 months so I'm a little behind. I would suggest to the search the archive requests, not searching is a reality of forums. I'd love to upgrade to what appears to be a top notch saw. As said by many though, if other manufacturers get in this market, I'd rather buy from them.

I see a fundamental problem when the manufacturer/inventor/patent owner is able to force into law the use of thier invention. I think it is a conflict of interest. As a capitalist market, I will consider placing my dollars against this conflict of interest. However, if the other manufactures never enter the market, I may not be given this choice.

[Robert Mayer]

These sawstop threads should be closed immediately unless new information is posted. Between this forum and woodnet its been beaten to a pulp. Lets get back to woodworking and move on.

[Mike Henderson]

I see a fundamental problem when the manufacturer/inventor/patent owner is able to force into law the use of thier invention. I think it is a conflict of interest. As a capitalist market, I will consider placing my dollars against this conflict of interest. However, if the other manufactures never enter the market, I may not be given this choice.

As stated by someone earlier, please check out the facts. The SawStop inventor cannot "force into law" anything. I'm sure there's a bunch of companies who would like to "force into law" a requirement that everyone would have to use their product. It simply cannot be done.

Gass (the inventor) has petitioned the Consumer Products Safety Commission (CPSC) to begin a study of table saw safety which could result in rule making that could require additional safety features on table saws.

The actions Gass has taken are actions that any responsible manufacturer/inventor would take. If you were an investor in Gass' company, you would be entirely correct in demanding that Gass take the actions he did, if he did not choose to do them himself. Everything Gass has done is legal and ethical. In fact, one could easily argue that it would be unethical NOT to approach the CPSC.

This has all been discussed many times before in this forum.

Mike

[Al Garay]

Shoot. I would think the ShopBot CNC router would be a further leap in safety, technology and performance. I'd rather have a PRTAlpha ... the point being, there are choices.

http://www.shopbottools.com/prtalpha.htm

[Rob Bodenschatz]

These sawstop threads should be closed immediately unless new information is posted. Between this forum and woodnet its been beaten to a pulp. Lets get back to woodworking and move on.

Don't like it, don't read it.

[Matt Moore]

These sawstop threads should be closed immediately unless new information is posted. Between this forum and woodnet its been beaten to a pulp. Lets get back to woodworking and move on.

Close your eyes and move on.

The forum would be boring if we did not have discussions like this sometimes.

Personally, I think we should start a SS thread everyday.

All the press on the forums just keeps this topic to the forefront and there will be more and more people that just don't care about the "political" issues around it and will buy it.

It just helps the company succeed.

Therefore, those of you that hate SS and Gass so much should just ignore these threads so that you do not help the marketing of the SS product.

[Jim Bell]

Don Bullock vbmenu_register("postmenu_481628", true);
2007 Contributor
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: California
Posts: 42


I know that many of you who have been around for a while have problems with posts like this that rehash old arguments, but I’m very thankful it was posted. I’m just getting back into woodworking after being out of the hobby for about twenty five years. Until I saw some posts like this about Sawstop I had no idea the technology existed. While I’m not in the position to fork out $3,000 for a table saw right now, I certainly would if I had the money available. What an article like this has done for me is make me more aware of the dangers of my present, early 1970s Craftsman, table saw. As a result of what I’ve seen and read you can bet that until I can save up the $3,000 for the Sawstop that I will be using pushers and feather boards a lot more than I have in the past in order to keep my fingers as far away from that new Forrester blade I installed as possible. A Sawstop or similar technology will be in my shop as soon as I can possibly afford it. I’m hoping that it doesn’t take an Act of Congress to get other saw makers to put all the Sawstop safety features on their products so that I’ll have more choice when I’m ready. Yes, as suggested I'll search the achieves for other posts on this subject, but thanks for bring it up again so this newcomer could read what it's all about.
__________________
Don Bullock

Don Welcome back to the Woodworking arena. I have bad news though.......... that 3 grand is just for the saw. If you want a fence and other necessary attachments it's closer to $4500.00. For me it will take an act of congress to put me in their market. What I would like to see would be for everyone who buys a table saw to take a few lessons from a professional as to proper operation and maintenance of their new saw. Or at least read the operating instructions carefully a time or two. Also if the mfrs would install a decent blade on all saws when shipped many problems I suppose would solve themselves. For what it's worth I was at a saw stop demo. It worked as advertised. I did notice however a large sticker warning people that saw stop is in no way responsible or liable for any injury or death while using their product. Mabe we should compare the product warning to say the warning on a pack of cigarettes instead of the automobile . I do agree the tool industry in this country has been complacent concerning technology and safety in general. I also agree it could and should be better. I am a fan of the thought of running my hand into a saw blade and at worst needing a stitch or two. Nobody short of a blithering idiot would disagree with that. I just don't like mandates from the government put in motion by private enterprise, when the only reason for doing so is the substantial cost increase most just cannot afford. I respect each of you who have purchased or will purchase a saw stop. My concern or disagreement is not with you. I want us all to work safe and be safe. Just a thought, is the lighting in your shop/work area adequate? I vacumed the tubes and bulbs in my workshop this weekend. What a difference! How about those windows? Do you ever work when tired? Ever have a day when you know a whirling blade is just not a good idea but you go anyway? Ever get mad or frustrated and instead of taking a walk outside to let it go, decide to MAKE it happen anyway? We all have these days. What was the result the last time you actually knew better but continued anyway? Guys I've been at this stuff for 35+ yrs. I have bought and used tools some of you would laugh at I once had a $115.00 table saw (new) witha $65.00 CMT General 10" blade. It actually did a decent job. Kinda tippy though. Perhaps instead of arguing and rehashing this over and over we put together a thread on table saw tips to help make what we have safer. I have years of experience with all kinds of tools both good and bad. Some scary, some just plain stooopit and some funny. I'm sure most of the posters just on this thread have much to share too. I mean we have an architect and an inventor and a dentist that I know of here. Besides I think mabe we're giving the moderators an ulcer With our combined effort we could prevnt an injury or two I'm sure

[Jim Murphy]

For example: I have heard 2 stories about Gass' attempts to have government mandate the technology. 1st stories is that the mandate would include HIS technology, 2nd story is that the mandate is just for some kind of safety technology like his.

I read up on this proposed Consumer Product Safety Commission issue a few months ago. The answer is #2. The proposed regulation would not require incorporating SawStop's proprietary technology, but manufacturers would have to incorporate technology which would have a similar ability to prevent a deep cut should flesh contact the blade while operating.

I am sure the Creek's engineers, or other technically competent people can find the details, but as I recall the proposal has objective standards -- that is, a cut of a certain depth assuming a certain speed of hand to blade. The responses by the lawyers hired by SawStop's competitors argued that SawStop is currently the only technology available to accomplish such a feat (guess they were caught napping), that they are working really, really hard to come up with better technology, which they are sure will happen someday. They also apparently don't want to pay a license fee to SawStop, presumably because they don't want to fund a competitor.

Best I can tell, we are witnessing some old fashioned bare-knuckled business fight for market share. I don't see anyone wearing a pure white hat, or offering to turn over any profits to charity. All these characters are out for their own bottom line (how else can you explain the lack of even a riving knife on American machines until recently?)

When all this shakes out, I bet the competition will inure to the benefit of woodworkers. SawStop, through market pressures or regulation (or lawyers through litigation) will push the established manufacturers to come up with a safer product, and when that is done, market pressures will push SawStop to become more competitive on their price. Even woodworkers who want no part of this technology will benefit because the prices on used machines will probably drop as some part of the market decides to buy the new technology, increasing the supply of used machines.

I am no fan of government regulation, but I am not surprised that businessmen try to use regulations against their competition. If the shoe was on the other foot.....the tactics would be the same.

[Lee DeRaud]

I read up on this proposed Consumer Product Safety Commission issue a few months ago. The answer is #2. The proposed regulation would not require incorporating SawStop's proprietary technology, but manufacturers would have to incorporate technology which would have a similar ability to prevent a deep cut should flesh contact the blade while operating.

The critical question in play is:
Given the way patents are being (mis)interpreted these days, is it even possible to develop "technology which would have a similar ability to prevent a deep cut should flesh contact the blade while operating" without violating one or more of the SS patents?