RESOLVED: I was trying to avoid posting this - General jointer damaged by ???

[Gary Herrmann]

I heard back from Redmond Machinery today. I don't mean to take advantage of the system, but after examining the jointer tonight I found a couple other things. First is the email from my salesman, then my response.

It seems like he intends to do the right thing. I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens.




Gary,

I have spoken to my Old Dominion representative as well as the guy in charge of OS&D at our local terminal and they have both told me basically the same thing;

When shipping freight, it is the receivers responsibility to inspect all packages for damages in the presence of the delivery driver,

Any damage discovered or concerns about possible damage must be noted on both the driver’s and receiver’s copy of the bill of lading,

Because no such notations were made, your delivery was considered complete without damage. Old Dominion has apparently determined the damage to your machine to be “concealed damage” and, as far as Old Dominion is concerned, the damage could have occurred before it was shipped (which I know is not the case) or after the driver left (which you know is not the case). This is why, as it was explained to me, your claim was denied.
However, my Old D representative has recommended that you resubmit the claim. She said that in cases such as this many claims are automatically denied, but that if the claim is resubmitted – the claims department may pay, or at least negotiate, the settlement. She is also trying other avenues to facilitate the claim.

In the meantime, I will be glad to order the replacement rear table and have it shipped directly to you from General. As I stated in one of our previous correspondences, I will be billing this part at Redmond’s cost. However, I will hold the bill until the matter with Old Dominion is completely resolved. At which time I will absorb any cost that is not paid to you by the freight company, even if they do not pay you anything. I do ask that you resubmit your claim and make your best effort to negotiate full restitution. Because you signed for the machine without notation of damage, my hands are tied and I can not file or negotiate the claim myself.

Just so that you know that we at Redmond are concerned about our customer’s satisfaction and that we try to turn situations like this into opportunities to improve, I will be creating a large label to be placed on all machinery shipped. This label will inform the receiver of the need to inspect for all damages prior to signing for the machinery. Damages in shipping have been very rare for us over the years, and claims this difficult have been even rarer. Hopefully, this label will help keep situations like this from developing again.

Please confirm that the “rear table” is the only replacement part you are in need of and I will get it ordered and shipped as soon as possible.

I am sorry that my vacation delayed this process even longer. Please call me if you have any questions or concerns.

XXXX

XXXX,

I spent an hour this evening closely examining the jointer. I found the following things:

1. The broken section of cast iron on the outfeed table (which you know about)

2. The infeed and outfeed tables cannot be made parallel. One of the tables is twisted. Using a straight edge and feeler gauge, the closest I can come to parallel is when the outfeed table is.01" (one hundredth of an inch) lower than the infeed table on the side closest to the guard and .006" higher than the infeed table next to the fence. I assume this twist is due to the impact that broke the cast iron off the outfeed table, but am not sure.

3. There was a great deal of vibration when I started the jointer. I finally identified the cause. Please note the attached pics. The arbor on the motor pulley is rubbing against the door. The end of the arbor is abraded from contacting the door the two or three times I've started it. Again, I assume this is due to the impact to the jointer that broke the outfeed table but am not sure. Even with the door open, there is excessive vibration. It is possible a motor mount has been damaged. Considering how hard the impact would have to be to break off a piece of cast iron, it isn't unreasonable to assume it could also damage a motor mount. Clearly, it moved the motor.

I cannot get a nickel to balance on edge when the jointer is running (even with the door open). I can balance a nickel on edge on the General tablesaw and planer when I start them, running and stop them.

What are my options? Replacing the outfeed table will fix the broken cast iron and may eliminate the twist in the tables. However it won't solve the problem with the pulley arbor, and I am not going to leave the door open when the jointer is running in the future.

I've already spent a great deal of time attempting to tune up this new jointer. I don't want to have to spend hours on it each time we replace one part.

What are we going to do about the pulley arbor? Clearly the motor has become misaligned.

What are we going to do if replacing the outfeed table does not eliminate the twist in the tables?

I'd like to know your recommendations before I resubmit my claim.

Replacing the jointer will definitely eliminate any of these problems.

I can be reached at work at 8888888888 if you want to talk tomorrow.

Gary

[Mike Heidrick]

Call the CC company and dispute. Do it now before you end up with this charge. Tell Redmond to send the freight truck back - you have a return.

You bought a "new" jointer.

[Gary Herrmann]

I opened a dispute about a week ago. I think that may have started the ball rolling.

[Matt Meiser]

I agree--get the process started with the CC company and make sure he knows it. Tell him that you are doing so because the bill is coming due and you know they will work it out before it becomes necessary to have the charges reversed. It will take some time with the CC comapny and if you wait too long you are more likely to have trouble.

Never mind--I see we posted at the same time.

[Gary Curtis]

I was sad to see your predicament. I just retired from FedEx, and though I worked in Flight Operations, I know a bit about motor carriers and freight. You, the receiver, have to protect yourself when the item is delivered by inspecting as best you can. Right while the driver is present. And in writing.

When I bought my General tablesaw a year ago, the dealer instructed me to do the same. We were standing in front of my saw in its crate and I asked him, "How do I do that when the contraption is boxed up in wood and cardboard?" He said to look for obvious signs on the outside -- dents, scuffs, holes poked in the cardboard, distressed wood on the pallet. And to make a notation of that on the drivers waybill copy.

Once down on paper, a later discovery of real trouble (when fully unpacked) is substantiated and won't be disputed. I feel your dilemma because in my case, the pallet took 3 days to uncrate - saw and sliding table weighed 1,000 lbs. I didn't see anything on the exterior and worried about the inside and what was hidden.

As to General's standards for shipping, I just got a look at a competitor. I went to a WW seminar at Felder in Sacramento calif. For lumber to build a front door we used the pallet from a 1300-lb Felder sliding tablesaw. In comparison, the General pallet and restraints were robust. Your dealer was not on the job for not giving you this warning about inspection. It is standard, according to the really nice FedEx driver who brought my half-ton beastie. Largely because some stuff does get damaged, at least cosmetically. And because buyers bang up a new machine in their own shop trying to manhandle equipment without a forklift or a pallet jack. And they want someone else to pay for the damage.

To your dealer, fixing the problelm is 2 phone calls and a few emails.

Gary Curtis

[Jim Chilenski]

Gary,

Let me make a couple of assumptions first.

You purchased a "floor Model" from Redmond at a reduced price.

Because the jointer was a floor model Redmond's staff crated the jointer for shipment.

The photo at the beginning of this post is a picture of the jointer as it sat in the crate that Redmond packed it in.

If the above statements are true then here are my observations. The jointer was not packed correctly for shipment. The jointer should not have been shipped with the center section and the tables mounted to the base. The entire top of the jointer, center section and tables, should have been removed from the base and placed upside down on the bottom of the packaging and the base should have been packed seperately. This is how my jointer, not a General, was packaged. It appears that the shipping crate was built so that the ends of the tables were supported by wood members attached to the bottom of the crate.

Now here's where I believe the problem came from. The wooden support that runs from left to right on the bottom of the crate does not appear to be thick enough to support the weight of the jointer without flexing. If a fork lift or pallet jack were to be placed under the crate the forks would be on either side of the jointer's base. Once lifted, the bottom support would then bow down in the middle forcing the ends to flex upward. This upward pressure then forced the ends of the tables up as well, causing the crack in the casting of the table.

In my opinion whoever crated the jointer did an inadequate job of protecting it for shipment and should be responsible for making good on it. If what I have stated is "true" then Redmond should do whatever is necessary to make you whole. While I would not expect them to replace your "floor model" with a "new" jointer, I would expect them to replace all of the damaged parts or else take the jointer back and refund your money.

Jim

[Jim Grill]

Best of luck to you, Gary. That is a real drag. It makes my stomach hurt just to look at it. I can imagine how you must feel.

I definitely think someone should take care of this for you. I would expect that I should be able to return something if I'm not happy with it. I think the same should apply to machinery.

I tried the credit card thing once. My bank told me that since I received the merchandise, they could not issue a charge back. I had to work out a return to the vendor before they would allow the charge back. The plan was that I would send it back requiring a signature on delivery and then use that as proof that I was not in possession of the merchandise. Luckily, the vendor agreed to a refund at that point.

As mentioned in this thread, the bank is on your side and should work with you on a solution, if it gets that far. Merchants do not like charge backs and it's in their best interest to prevent one, if possible.

Best of luck to you. Keep us informed - all 18,000 of us!

[Tim Lynch]

Ted,

As far as longwinded blowhard posts go, I rather enjoyed it!

Very informative.

I've been ordering a lot of LTL delivered items for my home remodel and I've been surprised at the amount of shipping damage incurred. Luckily, the supplier was specific about how to receive items -- inspect, document, etc. -- so replacement items were no problem. But even some of the replacements arrived damaged! Funny almost.

Another surprising thing... the drivers were all great, and seemed to be on my side (they blamed their warehouse). One suggested I run and get my camera. He called his dispatcher and described some of the packages as total losses (a generous assessment actually, since they weren't that bad).


Anyway, your post reinforces a lot of good points, thanks!

[Gary Herrmann]

Per the comments regarding shipment of the jointer intact - I agree. My first jointer was shipped disassembled. I just called General and they do ship them dissasembled. They also told me they assemble the jointer in their plant and then grind the tables while they're on the cabinet to insure they will be parallel. Make me wonder if I'll be able to get mine parallel if I get a replacement outfeed table.

I was told today Redmond will order a new outfeed table and gibs from General and ship them to me. If I get anything from the shipping company, they'll use it to cover it. If not, there will be no cost to me.

I'm going to go home tonight and see if I can adjust the motor assembly and be sure the pulleys are aligned.

Redmond told me they will not replace the jointer, but will get me the replace the parts I need repair it.

If I can resolve the motor issue, eliminate the vibration and can get the new outfeed table installed and parallel to the infeed table, I'll be satisfied (note I didn't say happy).

Stay tuned...

[Bruce Benjamin]

This is crazy! With all of the trouble you've gone through and still have to look forward to, you may still end up with a jointer that will never be quite right. And a jointer that isn't quite right is worthless. And by that point it will be even harder to get a refund. Regardless of what Redmond says about a refund, you should demand one and get started with your credit card company dispute. You have way more patience and tolerance than most people would on this problem and I have the feeling it's going to end up biting you in the . If the damage was only cosmetic I can see taking their approach but in this case, it's the very heart of the machine that's damaged, and in ways that are not completely known.

I bought an 8" jointer from Sunhill a few years ago. They shipped the 6" even though the paper work was correct. It wasn't obvious to me until I started to unpack it. They shipped out the correct jointer the same day I complained before I even had the old one packed up. They paid for the old jointer to be shipped back of course and gave me a couple of sets of knives for my trouble. There was some slight damage to the jointer base. I determined that I could probably bend it straight and live with the damaged paint. They said if I couldn't that they would pay to ship the old base back and ship me a new one immediately. I didn't want to bother packing the old one up and waiting around for another pick up and delivery. It was easy to fix and the cosmetic damage is hidden by the super heavy duty mobile base I made for it. Upon set up I discovered that the Fence was twisted. They didn't hesitate to send me out a new one and it also shipped the same day. They didn't ask for the old fence to be returned. They never had any response other than, "I'm very sorry, what can we do to make you happy?" Somewhere during this drawn out transaction they also sent me a free mobile base that they sell for about $80 or so. It's very beefy but I haven't used it because I went with the one I built myself. This is the attitude that Redmond should have with you. They should be asking you what they can do to make you happy. I have no doubt that if at any time I would've asked Sunhill for a complete refund they would've sent out the truck and I would've seen the refund on my credit card. Redmond is absolutely a company I'll never be doing business with at all.

Bruce

[Brad Townsend]

Let's see...It's 7:35 p.m CDT on Tuesday and so far this has generated 56 replies and had 3640 viewings. Do you think Redmond has ANY idea how much they are being hurt by this? And the longer it drags on the worse it gets.

[Norm Frampton]

Mr. Herrmann,
My name is Norm Frampton and I look after sales and marketing here at General and General International. I have personally just become aware of this unfortunate situation.
Please call me direct at 1-888-949-1161 ext#222 - I'd like to speak with you to discuss possible ways that we could be of assistance in working with your distributor to resolve this for you and get you up and running.

[Mike Heidrick]

Mr. Herrmann,
My name is Norm Frampton and I look after sales and marketing here at General and General International. I have personally just become aware of this unfortunate situation.
Please call me direct at 1-888-949-1161 ext#222 - I'd like to speak with you to discuss possible ways that we could be of assistance in working with your distributor to resolve this for you and get you up and running.

Thankyou for posting this. General may save some purchases by helping Gary. We are a pretty tight knit group and there are plenty of people making tools. General on this board a standard by which many other tools are measured. This reinforces those claims of quality and customer satisfaction. Now if we can get Redmond to help out that would be even better.

[Alfred Clem]

Did you photograph the crate (box, carton, or whatever) before you opened it? Did you keep the wrapping paper or cardboard? Did you have witnesses who saw the crate? The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[Mike Cutler]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

The squeaky wheel also gets replaced.

Gary.
It's good to see that everything worked out in the end, but what a journey it was for you.
Nice job to GI, and Mr. Frampton for stepping up to the plate and doing what they could to rectify the situation.