Looking for Someone to Make Sugar Maple Drum Shells

[David Loewen]

Hi there, Dave Loewen here. Listen, I have been doing some digging, and I stumbled acrross your site, and I am wondering if you might be able to help me out.

THE PROBLEM
I'm writing to you from Vancouver, BC CANADA, which is exactly the reason that I am posting here - Sugar Maple doesn't grow out here, and I need some of it. It's pretty standard issue for what I want to do because it is tough and looks as amazing as it sounds. What I really want is to find someone that was willing to turn it for me - making solid one ply true solid drum shells (yes the percussion instrument - drum set)

I am looking to make drum shells out of solid pieces of Sugar Maple (not much different from the process of bowl-making I assume). Anyway, being that Sugar Maple isn't native to these here parts, I am trying to find someone who might be able to supply me with some wood to turn, or turn it for me and send me a completely finished (or roughly finished "shell" and I would bring it to completion on this end).

GENERAL INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR
The depth of shells (finished product) would be anywhere from 10" dia x 8" depth all the way up to 22" dia x 20 depth (with various sizes inbetewen). I understand that the later size would be quite difficult to get because of it's size, but I don't imagine that the smaller sizes would too much of a task.

Just to give you an example so that you might be able to visualize my needs; my drum set has a 10"x10" tom drum, a 16"x14" floor tom drum, a 20"x20" bass (also called a kick) drum, and a 13"x7 snare drum (all sizes I just gave you are dia x depth). I think the bass drum has a thickness of 3/8" while all the other drums are 1/4 of an inch (although the snare may be up to 1/2" or even 5/8" thick).

THE SOLUTION
If you are interested in pursuing this further, get in touch with me and I'll pass my number along so we can talk. I am sure you have questions, as do I. I am willing to pay, so throw some figures my way and lets talk.

Can somebody please help me out here by using your craftsmanship and talent to make me some shells (might be a reasonably profitable side business - the turning of the blanks and shipping of the shells to me that is...), or direct me to someone who could (either sell me blanks large enough or turn the appropriate sized blanks into roughly the correct sized shells that I would need)?

Thanks for considering. Please ask any questions you have, and don't hesitate to drop me a line.


Best to you,

Dave Loewen

[Andy Hoyt]

David - I'm not offering to help - yet.

But I do have a few observations for which your responses might encourage others to jump in. Here goes:

Please confirm that you're after open-ended cylinders.

Please confirm that you're after cylinders that have been turned from one solid piece of stock.

Please confirm that you will not consider a cylinder turned from glued-up stock ala stave construction.

Since sound and tone is likely to be an issue for you, please confirm that the finished product should be 100% free of defects (nature's or ours).

Please indicate if there is a Must-Be-In-Vancouver date.

Thanks.

[David Loewen]

Hi Andy, thanks for the encouragement to clarify - I had assumed that I'd have at least a few offers by now. Please read on everyone else.

Andy is correct in all his observations. I am looking for open-ended cylinders that have been turned from one solid piece of stock and I will not consider a cylinder turned from glued-up stock (aka stave construction).

Since sound and tone is the primary issue for me (aesthetics being second), the finished product should be 100% free of defects (nature's or yours).

Now I think I'm starting to sound a little over-particular, but there is some flexibility here. As of right now, I do not have any dates to impose upon you, however the success of my drum kits (and our working relationship) will depend I suppose on the quality of the shells that you are producing. Regarding shipping, I could set up an account with Fedex and they could pick the shells up at your door to relieve some stress, and I am open to how and when you get paid.

If you are interested, lets talk. Please don't be shy, there is some very decent money in this for the right craftsman.


Thank you for considering,

Dave

[Jim Becker]

David, what you're asking for presents some significant challenges to most turners including the required equipment to handle the sizes of things you want. One other thing...the nature of wood and moisture is going to require turning twice (at least)...once from the green log to oversize and then to final specifications after thorough drying. Final spec may require remounting several times, depending on the stability of the material. "That big" (diameter and depth) combined with "that thin" pretty well means there is going to be some extra shells necessary to make up for those that crack and distort significantly.

While there are some folks here that turn professionally, the majority are hobbyists with smaller lathes. I'm only mentioning all this to keep things in perspective...it's one of the reasons that drum shells from solid stock are pretty rare!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David......as Jim stated........Turning each one of these from a single piece of wood may be a real challenge. First finding the right single piece of wood and 2nd getting it through the turning process without warpage, splits, etc.

I'm not so sure that a glue up with a possible veneer added might be the more practical way to go.

Good luck!

[David Loewen]

Hey guys, thanks for posting.

Jim, to you first. You pretty much nailed it on the head, the log would need to be turned first leaving a couple inches of mean on the shell so that it could dry and then be turned a second time to achieve the final shape. I understand that most turners are hobbyists, but I am hoping that someone with the mind and the abilities and equipment, might step in and help me out.

Ken, you mention the difficulty of turning open ended cylinders, and suggest that because of it's difficulty that I should consider the practically of veneered (multiple ply). There are several reasons that I want to move away from ply shells.

1) They are very common, and as such everyone who can drill a hole and screw on hardware calls themselves a "Custom" drum company. This is grossly misleading. I designed my own hardware and want to make my own shells (so to speak). That is what "Custom" really means.

And...

2) Ply shells can only sound so good (if you know what I mean), and that really isn't that good. Seriously. there is so much glue used in a ply shell that the shells can't resonate freely. Glue doesn't sound so good/wood does. Let me illustrate. Let's take for example, a 14" diameter snare drum. 3.14 (pi) x 14" = 43.69' x 6" = 263.76 sq. inches x 9 glued plies = 2,373.84 sq." of glue used on a common ply snare. Glue is in fact it is a tone inhibitor. Wood is good, glue is dead.

There is only 2 companies in Canada doing solid shells (and hundreds doing ply shells). One sells exclusively to a larger drum company, and the other is in Quebec CANADA... need I say more??? And the only other company that I know of is in Australia. None of them sell one offs to custom drum makers like myself.

So in summary, ply shells are way to common (all made by the same guy at Keller Shells out of Cali I believe), they don't sound very good (no matter who you buy the shell from).

True solid shells (we'll call them) are a bit rare, and I can only imagine that it's because not everyone has the guts or the cash to do it. I have the guts but not the cash (at least not enough to buy the set-up it would take to do what I want). And that's why I am trying to get hooked up with one of you. Listen, guys turn bowls all the time, all this is is a more cylindrical bowl with an extra hole in it. Wouldn't you simply 1) round the outside of the log, 2) hollow out the inside (within 2" so it could dry), 3) Let it dry/kiln dry it, 4) lathe the final shape and thickness of the shell, and 5) cut off the butt and sand the other edge (to match the first edge)? I don't turn, but this is how I can conceptualize doing it.

Is there anyone out there that would take a crack at it? Let's try one shell. I know this can be done. Let's try a 13" dia x 6.5 depth and 1/2" thick. Anyone??? I am very serious about this, I'm just looking for someone willing to take a stab at it with me.

[William Bachtel]

I thought they were scraf jointed and glued. Not turned, but I do like the turning idea, but in todays market place its sounds expensive.

[David Loewen]

Like how expensive? I need someone to give me an idea of what this would be worth to them.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David.....what I was thinking was gluing up staves like wooden barrel staves of old and then turning them round. Then apply a veneero over the outside.


The trouble as I see it is finding the "perfect" piece of wood. Then you rough turn it green......let it dry and then finish turn it. Wood as it dries can warp and/or crack.....This is what will make the process as you describe it extremely difficult and therefore extremely expensive.

If you could stave it......you could use kiln dried wood.....rip them to the proper width and angles.....glue them up......Turn to thickness. It eliminates the possible warpage and cracking of green wood drying and it eliminates the 2 turning process and the time required to allow the wood to dry properly.....

Good luck with you endeavors!

[Richard Madison]

David,
You mention "ply" shells, which are multiple very thin layers, laminated together around a form. And wherein the glue joints may be a noticeable percentage of the shell wall thickness.

Why not "stave" construction, in which the glue joints would be a small fraction of the total construction? Just wondering.

[David Loewen]

Hey guys, thanks for the suggestion to do it with staves, but I'll give you a couple of reasons.

Really it all boils down to the glue, first of all a solid shell has no glue, a stave shell still uses a bit, though not nearly as much as a ply construction. Staves have multiple vertical seams (the number depends on the size of the drum (i.e. a 14" snare has 20 staves hence 20 seams) to me this is quite unsightly. And although people think quite highly of stave drum shells, they maintain an unnatural look. The use of multiple pieces of wood glued together still poses the potential problem of cracking (although perhaps not warping).

So in short, although staves are neat, and some custom drum makers are making a living at it, it is not my intention. I have done incredible amounts of digging and definatley do want to do a true solid shell out of a single log - no seams, no glue.

Thanks though, I appreciate the feedback and suggestions.

[Steven Wilson]

David, you pose an interesting challange. Let's take your worst case scenerio - the bass drum (floor tom's aren't far behind). For a finished 22" bass drum, I would want a tree with a diameter of 26" to accomodate the bark, outer layer, and out of round resulting from drying. Length would need to be at least 24", maybe longer. A 26x24 wet blank would weigh somewhere around 380 lbs (.56g/cc dry desity plus allow 50% for wet) which is a bit bigger than I and my wife would care to lift. So, to handle that blank I would need a high reaching engine hoist or a small overhead crane fitted in the shop. For moving that piece of wood around I would probably need to install a crane in the pickup or have a Bob Cat or forklift available at the house. I have a lathe with a fairly large capacity (Oneway 2436) but would need to have a custom outboard turning attachment made in order to handle the length of the blank, plus tailstock, face plate, etc.

Initial rough turning of the piece would be interesting and fairly risky. I'm not sure If I would leave a bottom (I might turn a plywood disk to fit the bottom and screw it in and band it) due to cracking problems associated with the thickness of stock I would want to leave in the base. A wet piece like this would probably move a lot so I would rough turn it thick, seal it, pack it in shavings and then let it sit for 3 months, at which point I would chuck it up and see where it's at. It would probably take a few sessions of turning and drying until final turning can happen. I would expect a 50% or higher rejection rate so for every finished shell I would want to rough turn 3 or 4 and would not expect a finished shell for at least a year (drying).

I'm thinking that to safely turn the outside and inside I would need to fabricate some specialist bowl steadies and jumbo jaws (possibly an expanding internal chuck that meets up with the tail stock). In any case I would need to contact my lathe manufacturer and other turners of large pieces to work on a safe way to handle pieces like this. It IS NOT a bowl. To gain precision I might need to fabricate custom ways to mount a router and slide that to make the exact external and internal diameters.

Gearing up to safely handle your project would be quite an expense and very few hobbiests probably have the equipment to safely tackle the work, even a snare drum would tax the equipment of most turners (pro or not), and we're not even talking about the cost of obtaining and transporting an appropriate tree. You may want to talk to Mary Lacer at the AAW to find resources that may be able to tackle your project.

[Ron Sardo]

I know of a person local to me who "wants" to make drums such as the ones you want. We spoke at length about his expectations and I understand exactly what you need .

This can be done and it would be very expensive. I told him that he would need to supply me with the wood and I would bill him for my time to create a process that would accomplish what he needs.

We expect the first shell to cost close to $5000.

Are you still game?

[David Loewen]

You guys, I appreciate all the responses, this is great. Now, to the last response.

Ron, could you explain to me what you think 5k would provide for you in order to create the first shell? I can imagine that it would take a hoist to get the log up onto the lathe, and I can imagine that to do this accuratley every time for production purposes would require some jigs and other stuff. I was asking around here in hopes of finding someone willing and capable of doing this (meaning that more or less they had the equipment that it would take).

Now you say " We expect the first shell to cost close to $5000". But after that first initial set-up cost, what could you see each shell costing?

[Ron Sardo]

You guys, I appreciate all the responses, this is great. Now, to the last response.

Ron, could you explain to me what you think 5k would provide for you in order to create the first shell? I can imagine that it would take a hoist to get the log up onto the lathe, and I can imagine that to do this accuratley every time for production purposes would require some jigs and other stuff. I was asking around here in hopes of finding someone willing and capable of doing this (meaning that more or less they had the equipment that it would take).

Now you say " We expect the first shell to cost close to $5000". But after that first initial set-up cost, what could you see each shell costing?

This type of work is not production work. Every shell would be a custom made shell. Consider the $5k as time and materials to create the product you need at the standards you set.

The cost for the blanks after the first can only be determined after the first successful blank is made.