Do I really want Lie Nielsen?

[Frederick Rowe]

Marcus,

I don't know what touched a nerve, but the only person on this thread who is talking about brand hype and sanctimonious judgment is you. Am I missing something in this thread? I know what you mean about the General Woodworking side fawning over a $1000 Festool whatever, but don't let it make you ill. To each his own. Even in the most heated threads I can't remember anyone saying "You are beneath me because you use a Craftsman tablesaw."

As for Keith's picture and post, don't you remember the satisfaction of flattening a board with a bench plane for the first time? Pulling a long, clean, uninterrupted shaving? As for "focusing on side effects, not the result" you've missed the point. He's mastering the technique. The Chippendale highboy will come later.

You're among friends. No one is challenging you, your choice, or anything else. I've read many of your threads as you share your knowledge and experience freely. This seems out of character for you.

Peace.

[Marcus Ward]

Hmmm perhaps you're right. The thing I'm reacting to isn't this thread, it's a bunch of diverse situations where someone is pushing the bling tools for no reason than they're blingy. Hell yeah I'd love to own all LNs, they're great. Part of this is a reaction to our culture of buying on credit things we don't need, and not knowing anyone's financial situation I can't say they're doing that or not, but if they're Americans, statistically, most of the people here are buying these tools on credit, which is dumb. There is no way to justify it, don't even try. Part of it is more than once having my intelligence questioned because I don't think a LN is 10x better than a tuned vintage stanley. Yes, it has happened. I even had one fruit look up my wish list on lee valley so he could see I wanted some newer planes to try to poke holes in my arguments. Kind of creepy.

Yeah, he's learning technique, and it was poor of me to pick this spot to spout off. I want everyone to enjoy using hand tools and woodworking and most of all making things out of wood. The tools are just the means to the end, which is something you've built with your hands and sweat and love. I try to steer (sometimes shove) to make sure people realize that.

All that, and I wrote that in the morning before I had my first cup of coffee, and my wife doesn't even talk to me then so you can get some idea of my mental state. I apologize.

[Keith Beck]

Marcus,

My feelings were a bit hurt by your original post, but I'm over it...

I was by no means sayings that you have to have a LN (or any other expensive plane) to produce nice shavings. As evidenced by another post on this forum, I have planes other than LN. In fact, I have a no-name #4 I got off of eBay (I think for the whopping sum of $25) that'll make some nice shavings, but it took quite a bit of work to get it to that point. I was just very impressed that the LN was ready to go right out of the box. And boy does it feel good in my hands!

Oh, and Fred, thanks for the support. But, I think you and I will both very old men before I gather enough skill to tackle a Chippendale Highboy!

Keith

[Michael Faurot]

The thing I'm reacting to isn't this thread, it's a bunch of diverse situations where someone is pushing the bling tools for no reason than they're blingy.
....
Part of it is more than once having my intelligence questioned because I don't think a LN is 10x better than a tuned vintage stanley.

I know how you feel. I've been in a similar contrary position and had my intelligence called into question because I dared think that the less expensive planes are actually usable.

I've got a diverse collection of planes from Groz, Anant, Veritas/Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen, Stanley, Craftsman, and a quite a few wooden planes I've made myself. I'm able to do something useful with all of them. I'm not saying they all work equally well. In fact I really hate the Anant plow plane I've got. I really love the ones I've made myself and those made by Lie-Nielsen and Veritas.

Lately, when someone asks me, "I'm interested in using hand planes, what should I start with?" I try and find out what sort of person they are, or have them ask themselves. If they've got plenty of disposable income and are looking for quick results--I will recommend they look into either Lie-Nielsen or Veritas and have a ball. Most of the time though, the person asking has a fixed/small budget, so it gets more complicated. This is where I try and find out how interested they really are. If the person has the personality to keep at it and not give up, then I'll suggest they look into a less expensive option like Groz and if they like that, then go look for some of the vintage stuff at flea markets, antique stores, or try their hand at making their own in the Krenov style. For the folks that have a small budget and no patience, I'll either suggest they probably won't like using hand planes or to save some money and then get something from Veritas.

I also suspect, when the more experienced out there are answering the question about what to get, and immediately suggest Lie-Nielsen or Veritas it's because they've come to appreciate how well these tools work and the fact they're pretty much ready to go out of the box, thus eliminating all the work and potential frustration that comes with fettling a vintage plane or the plane kits that come from Stanley, Groz, Anant, etc. It may also be a case of ennui that comes from having answered that question a number of times before, so the easy answer is to just suggest the very best.

So, to me, what to suggest a novice start with depends on who's asking and how much time and money they have to put into learning.

[Lee Koepke]

Thanks for that post Micheal. and Marcus, your posts were really informative for me as well.

You guys have given me the perspective I was looking for, and all I had to do was be quiet, and pay attention!

I am taking a class to teach me some techniques in sharpening this coming Monday. That is my first step. From there, I will move on to what plane I would feel good with.

[Michael Faurot]

I am taking a class to teach me some techniques in sharpening this coming Monday. That is my first step. From there, I will move on to what plane I would feel good with.

That sounds like a good start. Hopefully your class will cover, or at least touch on, several different methods.

Try as many types/styles as your budget and time allow for. Use the ones that you like the most, allow you to quickly sharpen things and then get back to woodworking.

[Marcus Ward]

I will put my money where my mouth is. Anyone who feels like driving to my house, I will show everything I know about making planes work (probably take about 3 minutes hah!) and I'll provide the beer (if I've brewed any lately). If you've got a grotty old antique, come and sit while it soaks in the citric and we clean it up. I have no agenda other than to push you guys down the slope.

[Mike Gabbay]

Not to jump on anyone's case.... I respect all that is said and the posts do have a lot of merit.

I agree that you should not buy the bling tool for the sake of owning a bling tool. However, I think what it boils down to is how much time do you really want to spend tuning.

Personally I started with older Stanleys that were working tools. All were in good shape and could do the job. When I wanted to invest in other tools that were not as easy to find on the market or required a lot of work to refurbish I opted for the LNs. They are expensive but relative to the amount of time and money you need to invest in an older plane it's not that much more money. I look at it as opportunity cost. Would I rather tune up an older Stanley or woodwork? I'd rather do woodworking.

I do think beginners get turned off with hand tools because they are not tuned properly. So as a new hand tool user, maybe its not such a bad thing to invest in a $150 plane to see what a well tuned tool can do. That will peak their interest and remove the "mystic" of hand tools. As they become more experienced then they have enough knowledge to make an educated choice of tuning it themselves or paying for new well tuned plane.

Recently I just replaced my #7 Stanley with a new LN. Again it was a choice of investing time and money to refurbish or get a tool that was in great working condition out of the box. All I can say is I love the way the new #7 cuts (not because its new and an LN). Much better than the older Stanley. But the LN is well tuned, has a nicer iron and chipbreaker and I can now adjust the mouth (something my older Stanley did not have). And yes I do keep my irons very sharp.

My 2 cents....

[Marcus Ward]

Looks like you are willing to pay more for the convenience of not having to tune up a plane. I personally don't find that the hour or so I spend tuning up a plane is worth the 10 fold increase in cost associated with buying one of those but that's me. It's nice we all have options.

[Don C Peterson]

Marcus, I understand what you're saying. The vintage planes can be great, and some of them can be had for much less than a new LN or LV, but as someone who owns several LN planes as well as a couple old Stanleys (and some old woodies) it's kind of hard not to take exception to calling LN's "Bling tools". That term strongly implies that the purchase decision was based on style or vanity.

There are perfectly valid reasons why people buy new LN or LV tools. It isn't all just vanity...although I'll be the first to admit that there is some pride of ownership involved.

I like the idea of supporting a company like LN that takes pride in making fine tools and stands behind them, in turn they (and others) play a big part in keeping the knowledge and enthusiasm for hand tools alive.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that we have some sort of duty to buy the new stuff... I personally find that despite the extra cost, LN provides a pretty good VALUE, all things considered. Your considerations are obviously different. That's the beauty of the free market. People should be free to pursue their own ends (within limits) with no interference or judgement from others.

Who get's hurt if I buy, or convince someone else to buy a LN? There's no moral question here, just individuals weighing their priorities and hopefully making choices that make sense to them.

[Thomas Knighton]

Another newbie chiming in here, but here's my thoughts. Woodworking is expensive. No matter how you cut it, you're going to pay a fair amount of money somewhere. However, why should I drop $300 just for one plane, when for that same amount, I can have a half dozen different planes, plus spokeshaves, brace, egg beater drill, a few saws, and a few other goodies?

It's like my wife said to me when I started getting the older tools, at the very worst, I have some cool antique tools to show off. Somehow, I doubt she'd be so supportive of all that money being dropped on just one tool.

Now, is a "to each, their own" sort of thing? Sure. However, I figure folks should look at all the angles.

A vintage tool costs a great deal less, but requires some work to make it function properly. A new tool works great right out of the box, but you pay for that convenience. Personally, if I had an aversion to working on something, I'd have taken up video games as a hobby

Just my $.02, so take it for what it's worth.

Tom

[Marcus Ward]

Marcus, I understand what you're saying. The vintage planes can be great, and some of them can be had for much less than a new LN or LV, but as someone who owns several LN planes as well as a couple old Stanleys (and some old woodies) it's kind of hard not to take exception to calling LN's "Bling tools". That term strongly implies that the purchase decision was based on style or vanity.

You don't think there are hordes of guys who own these who don't really do any woodworking? I bet there are. Any boutique item like that attracts people who love the idea of something but don't actually use it. Look at the boutique amplifier market.

I like the idea of supporting a company like LN that takes pride in making fine tools and stands behind them, in turn they (and others) play a big part in keeping the knowledge and enthusiasm for hand tools alive.

I do too. I think it's great they make these tools. There is a tradition here that needs to be kept alive and they're doing great stuff.

Who get's hurt if I buy, or convince someone else to buy a LN? There's no moral question here, just individuals weighing their priorities and hopefully making choices that make sense to them.

The problem is if you look through the last 10 "I want a plane" posts there are hordes of people who say buy LN or LV and nobody pushing the vintage iron, which is just as good, and far far cheaper. For a guy new to hand tools the cost of entry on the high end tools is outrageous. I suppose I feel I've got a duty to the casual browser, anyone who finds these threads from a search engine, people who read this in a few years, and anyone else who doesn't have the finances or guts to plunk down 3 bills for a plane when they're not sure they're a hand tool guy to present the other side, the cheap seats as it were. Is the baseball game any less interesting from the bleachers than from the skybox? Nope. It's just more comfortable up there. It's still a lot of fun down in the bleachers. Sometimes my responses aren't necessarily for the original poster but for those watching in the wings and those who will come after.

[Don C Peterson]

You don't think there are hordes of guys who own these who don't really do any woodworking? I bet there are. Any boutique item like that attracts people who love the idea of something but don't actually use it. Look at the boutique amplifier market.

Sure there are some, I don't know about "hordes" but there are at least some. I'm sure there are some people who buy the vintage planes and use them for decorations, but that has no bearing on whether those tools represent a value to someone else.

The problem is if you look through the last 10 "I want a plane" posts there are hordes of people who say buy LN or LV and nobody pushing the vintage iron, which is just as good, and far far cheaper. For a guy new to hand tools the cost of entry on the high end tools is outrageous.

I don't know about that, the responses seem about equally divided. The difference is that nobody is saying anything that would imply that buying the older tools is "outrageous" or just for show, or foolish... I don't have any problem with you or anyone else recommending the vintage tools (I don't have a horse is that race), but I think you could at least tone down the rhetoric and acknowledge that there are valid reasons why someone might find the new planes to be a good choice.

I obviously had a different experience than you when buying my first plane. When I saw the "outrageous" price of the LN's I went with the inexpensive route and it almost turned me off of hand tools altogether. I finally ponied up for the LN #4 and it literally opened up a whole world of hand tools for me. I then went back after getting some experience with a well tuned plane and rehabbed that old cheapie into a good user, after I had given it up for dead; I count that $250 LN a bargain...

Nobody is arguing that unless someone buys a LN or LV plane they are somehow deficient in their reasoning. I'm just providing my viewpoint that those tools, despite their cost, represent a good value based on my priorities. If you share those priorities, fine, if not, that's fine too.

Either way--and this is the important thing--it's good that those new to hand tools hear both perspectives and can then decide for themselves without feeling like someone is passing judgement on them. So, share your experience and views, just please, tone down the rhetoric a bit.

BTW John, I'm sure you'll enjoy that plane!

[Michael Faurot]

However, I think what it boils down to is how much time do you really want to spend tuning.

That, plus money and tenacity. For those with a similar disposition to my own--cheap but with the tenacity of a terrier that has a pant leg in its mouth--one can learn and do useful things with the less expensive planes out there.

As I've gained more experience and have a bit of extra money, I really do appreciate how well the planes made by Lie-Nielsen and Veritas work.

I look at it as opportunity cost. Would I rather tune up an older Stanley or woodwork? I'd rather do woodworking.

That's an excellent point. Likewise, I would rather do woodwork than fettle a plane. When I first started though, I had more time and tenacity than I did money.

I do think beginners get turned off with hand tools because they are not tuned properly. So as a new hand tool user, maybe its not such a bad thing to invest in a $150 plane to see what a well tuned tool can do. That will peak their interest and remove the "mystic" of hand tools. As they become more experienced then they have enough knowledge to make an educated choice of tuning it themselves or paying for new well tuned plane.

That's why I think it's important for the novice and/or the person answering the question to figure out how much do they really want to do this. I remember a moment, not so long ago, when I was at a Woodcraft store browsing all the various tools and trying to figure out what I should get so I could do some jointing. I knew I could do it with a hand plane or a machine but I wasn't sure which way I wanted to go. I didn't own any planes at all, at this point in time, but I was very intrigued by them. So I took a look at the #7 Lie-Nielsen there and was immediately hit with sticker shock. I thought to myself, "Why would I want to spend $400 for a single plane, when I could get a machine that will do the job for less?" As you might guess, I went with a machine that did in fact cost less. But if there had been a less expensive #7 plane there like a Stanley, I probably would have started down the slippery slope a lot sooner.

Recently I just replaced my #7 Stanley with a new LN. Again it was a choice of investing time and money to refurbish or get a tool that was in great working condition out of the box. All I can say is I love the way the new #7 cuts (not because its new and an LN). Much better than the older Stanley. But the LN is well tuned, has a nicer iron and chipbreaker and I can now adjust the mouth (something my older Stanley did not have). And yes I do keep my irons very sharp.

These days, I'm basically of the same mind. I'm looking more at higher quality stuff, as my finances permit and replacing some of the less expensive things I got when I first started learning. But where there's a gap in my collection, I'd still consider a vintage plane that needs a little fettling if the price was right. For example, I still don't own a #7, but I really want that #7 Lie-Nielsen now. However, if you want to get rid of that #7 Stanley, I might be interested in buying it from you, and I'd give it a good home!

[Phillip Pattee]

No you don’t want an LN, or a LV, plane. You want something much nicer. I saw that our own Derek Cohen did a review on this Philip Marcou plane; Chris Schwartz did a review on one as well. http://www.marcouplanes.com/reviews/S15BU-review/index.asp They have high praise for the quality of the tool. This plane is based on the Lee Valley Veritas design, but has some nice improvements. Is it worth 10x the price of a LV? Sure is! You’ll love the feel of it in your hand. It is so well made you can pass it on to your children and grandchildren. I’m not saying this to mock anybody that has posted—this is testimony from people who use the plane.
"... It is a plane to visit, take down and make a few gossamer shavings before retiring for the night. It is a plane about which to say to the progeny “someday this will be yours”. It is a plane which, when acquired, will demonstrate once again that men are as romantic as women, and for that reason alone it was a bargain."

Peter Byrne

The people who are willing to lay out over 2 grand of their money for a nice plane use the same reasoning to justify the purchase as those who buy a LN or a LV. I can imagine someone who bought the LN defending his purchase of a low-end user to someone who owns a plane as nice as the Marcou. What would you say? And would you sound like Marcus when you said it? Each of us has to pick our own poison, so to speak. If you want it and can afford it, go for it! On the other hand, if Marcus and I decide that we can fettle an old Stanley and it works well, then that is an option too. Obviously the old Stanley planes are made well enough to hand down to future generations—that is why they are still here for us to use. Your grandchildren will have to fettle granddad’s old LN. If they decide it just isn’t worth their time to tune up, then maybe my grandson can buy it in an online auction for under $50!