400 sq ft shop nice budget

[Keith Dellwo]

Hello all,

This is a second attempt at a posting

[Peter Quadarella]

Post successful!

[Keith Dellwo]

Hello all,

Sorry about that. Im new to the forum, but have been lurking and learning for some time now. Im 49 this summer and find my thoughts constantly returning to memories of my youth in my old mans shop. I found considerable enjoyment spending evenings in the shop helping him with his various projects.With him teaching me the ins and outs of joinery and how to use his many planes and chisels. I can still smell the saw dust, and miss it and him very much. I have a 400 sq ft detached garage with electrical service that I intend to turn into a wood shop. I have a $10,000 budget to get the building up to date- insullated and sheetrocked, Hvac, and electrical upgraded. should'nt be a problem.
I have a $30,000 budget for power and hand tools and acessories...
There seems to be a lot of likes and dislikes as to Powermatic tools. It was/is my intention of using this brand. my opinion is not etched in wood however. I was thinking 12" jointer, 20" planer, 18" bandsaw, Pm2000 tablesaw, hollow chisel mortiser, and a chop saw. Helical cutters for the jointe and the planer. Im serious about working with wood (not just a middle aged whim) so I wanted to get the biggest practical tools I could afford. I also need all the assorted hand tools and clamps and glues and varnishes and oils and brushes and... and... and...
Am I goig wrong with the size of the machines. what would you do different. shop footprint is unchangable, no room for expansion.

Thanks for any input

Keith

[Peter Quinn]

PM equipment is tough, accurate, and resalable. Generally worth its price. Lots of import options these days though. I have a PM66 TS and a band saw, have used 12" jointer and 20" planer professionally, never helicoil head. Good stuff. That's a lot of gear in 400SF, have you considered jointer/planer combo? I would love a 20" planer, but that is a big footprint in a small shop. Everything on good mobile bases I assume? Gonna want good dust collection too. PM2000 looks great up close, lots of nice updates (internal blade dust shroud, riving knife).

You don't mention any shaping tools ie: shaper, router/table, lathe? I have used the PM chisel mortiser in classroom setting, not my favorite machine at that price. With that size space and budget good euro combo might buy you some storage/assembly space. Depends on what your making and how you work.

[Bryan Berguson]

Hi Keith,

First of all... WOW, that's a nice budget to have! With that said, I'll give you my 2 cents.

I'd skip the hollow chisel mortiser and go for a DowelMax. You won't find a bad word about them and they'll make strong, accurate joints in a lot less time than the hcm. I know this from reading about them but I was sold enough that mine is on order. I have no doubt it will perform to it's expectations.

Replace the chop saw with a sliding compound miter saw. I have a 10" Makita and coundn't see my shop without it.

If I had an extra 4 or 5 grand, I'd fit in a large (18" or greater) belt sander. I know I'd love to have one.

You'll want some kind of dust collection. Oneida is top notch but there are other good ones out there.

Spend some money on good blades for your tablesaw and scms. It will be well worth it. Forrest is the best in my book but again, there are other good blades like Freud and Amana.

Clamps - Bessey, Jet, Jorgensen... How much money do you have left? You can never have too many clamps.

You didn't mention drill press... I don't use mine much and could easily live without it.

Routers - I have 4. 2 that are in the 3 hp range, and 2 1.5's. You could get by with 1 in my opinion. So could I but who's counting...

Router bits - I wouldn't buy a set. Get good ones as you need them. Whiteside seems to be a hands down favorite and I have a good number of Freud bits myself.

Wow, I'm not sure where to stop. I'll let someone else step in...

Good luck!

Bryan

[Nathan Odle]

I'm younger than you with less space and budget, but I'm also in the process of equipping my shop. There a few things I've taken into consideration when planning that I think should apply equally to your situation. Although I'm newish at woodworking, I make my living as a real estate developer, commercial builder, and engineer so a lot of that knowledge is applicable.

Here are a few notes I have regarding shop infrastructure...
Everything that you can't conceivably pick up and move outside falls under this category. This includes the electrical service, lighting, interior wiring, HVAC, plumbing, dust collection, and so on. When dealing with the budget, place these things at the top of the priority list. Sure, they're not as sexy as the gadget-of-the-month, but you're only doing them once so do them right. $10,000 over 400 sf puts you at $25/sf which is plenty for this job.

Here are a list of things that I would make sure I get in there were I in your situation:

1. Electrical service: You mentioned that the shop already has service, and anyway your budget doesn't allow for extensive changes here. However, one still needs to check and be sure that the service is adequate for your situation. Do you know what size your service is?

2. Electrical wiring: The more the merrier I would resist the temptation to try and layout the tools and wire to them, because your needs will most likely change. It's probably a better idea to space outlets (both 110v and 220v) all the way around the shop. You didn't mention if the garage already had concrete down but if you are lucky enough for it to not I would seriously consider some floor outlets as well. Otherwise, have your electrician install some boxes around on the ceiling with locking receptacles. This way if you have a tool that's out in the middle of the shop you won't be tripping over cords. Over the benches, I like those long multi-outlet strips that are permanently installed.

3. Lighting: It used to be that one never used fluorescents in a place where it'd get cold, because they took forever to warm up. Nowadays, that's a moot point so make life easy on yourself and put a bunch of 4-bulb fixtures in. Troffer fixtures are so cheap, so no reason to skimp. I would especially aim for lots of light over any fixed benches. Over the area where you plan to do your finishing, spring for some daylight bulbs.

4. HVAC: For 400 sf you won't need much, that's for sure. You didn't mention which part of the country you are in but the space is small enough that the smallest of split systems should suffice. Some may promote not going with a full-on HVAC system but I would think that the dehumidification advantages in the summertime are more than worth it for a woodworking shop. You will probably want to look at an in-line humidifier for the wintertime for the same reason, these are cheap and simple to operate via a humidistat. For the "V" in "HVAC" (ventilation), I would go for a couple good exhaust fans at the minimum, and if you have the money left go for an overhead air filtration unit.

5. Plumbing: You didn't mention whether or not the shop had sewer and water. I'm assuming that being a former garage, it doesn't so there's not a lot to be had here on that end of things. The one exception might be an eyewash station. It doesn't have to be anything too fancy, there are a lot of inexpensive self-contained wall-mount ones out there. At the very least, keep an eyewash bottle on the shelf next to your first-aid kit. Not plumbing per se, but worth a mention nonetheless

6. Compressed Air: I would be tempted to put a compressed air port everywhere you placed an electrical outlet. You do it once, it's not all that expensive, and it's there for the lifetime of the shop. Resist the urge to plumb this in PVC.

7. I'd also put plenty of DC outlets around the place. Regarding dust collection plumbing, I was going to launch into a discourse based on what I know but this article says it as well or better: http://home.comcast.net/~rodec/woodworking/articles/DC_myths.html

6. Insulation: Use plenty, and get someone to install it in the form of wet-blown cellulose if possible

7. Miscellaneous: Epoxy the floors - sweeps much cleaner than bare concrete. Have a wireless intercom or even better, a telephone out there


I would approach tools with the same attitude as the infrastructure. Spend the money on your bread-and-butter items and get the best stuff you can afford, then get any 'luxury' items with what's leftover. I think that when it comes down to it, I would rather have a planer that won't piss me off than the latest joinery gadget. Same goes for hand tools...buy the best clamps possible and worry about the 12-in-1 does-it-all doodad later.

One other item of note...I think something that is probably often left out of shop 'plans' is a computer. Depending on who you are, this may be anything from a distraction to a can't-live-without. If you tend toward the latter, plan accordingly and at least give the thing a nice ventilated cabinet in which it can live

Anyway, someone else may disagree with all this and that's A-OK...the good thing is that it's *your* shop so at the end of the day you should do what makes you happy

[Ed Beers]

Given that you have no existing floor power tools, limited floor space, and a large budget, I would be looking at one of the euro combo machines. I haven't used one so I can't make recommendations but I wish I had given them some consideration when I bought that first tablesaw.

I know that 400 sqft looks pretty big when it's empty but drop $30K of stuff in it and you won't be able to find a place to stand.

Ed

[Dave Lindgren]

you remember how our dad's shop felt, and smelled? Part of that charm came for not having to wear hearing protection and face msks to get the nasty dusty litlle dust particles out of the air that todays hi speed, Hi power tools generate. if that ambiance is what you are trying to create, you are doomeded to failure.Why not look at some of the Neander Shop setups, and see if one of them better suits your needs. My Dad's shop always had a dirt floor, so there was the added overlay of softly decaying swadust on the floor

Just a thought fome the kid that always had to yank the belt on the old Montgomery Ward horse and a half

[Joe Chritz]

As to power tools. I highly recommend researching and purchasing each tool on the need and pros/cons of each. Not by brand alone or any other single attribute alone.

You will most likely end up with a mix of different machines. Unless I was going to get some smoking deal by buying several at once I think it is the best route.

Joe

[Josiah Bartlett]

I have a 400 square foot shop too. (That's 20x20, right?)

It sure gets cramped, although I have a wood stove (in storage, no flue), a motorcycle, a spare engine block, and a chest freezer that takes up some of the space.

I recommend you take some of that money and invest in cabinets (bought or made) for all around, and a good lumber rack system. I store all my long lumber in my shop's attic. I have a 12/12 pitch roof with trusses, and I have a plank floor with a hatch so I can get up there. I put one of the Harbor Freight 800 lb capacity electric hoists up in the peak of the roof so I can hoist bundles of lumber up and down. I store my sheet goods leaning against a wall horizontally. Its not optimal but I really am short on space.

Consider adding white pegboard all around, then you can hang anything anywhere. It also attenuates sound better than bare drywall. Also, add all the light you can find. I have 4 4' 2-tube shop light strips overhead and several 40W single tube fixtures about chest level around the walls. I got the fixtures on the walls tip from an auto painter- it lets you find all the defects in your paint or finish without having to take the piece outside.

If you have space, build a leanto shed that can hold your dust collector and air compressor. It will keep the dust and noise down inside and add a lot of comfort to the shop. Alternately the air compressor can go in the attic, if it is small enough. I have a 60 gallon horizontal Quincy that weighs twice what I do so it goes under the bench along the back wall.

Insulation is good no matter what the climate. I can heat my shop to comfortable with just two 1500 watt milkhouse heaters. I have 4" batt insulation in the ceiling, R12 in the walls, and weatherstripping around the doors.

If you can force yourself to be neat and make sure everything has a space to be put away in, you will be fine.

I consider shop size more by how many projects I can have going simultaneously rather than how many square feet. I have a one project shop.

[Lee Koepke]

I would recommend 1/2" plywood on the walls before drywall. Better durability and tons of constant support space. You can attach it with screws, and as I did, make 16" wide "chases" near my electrical drops for easier access than taking down an whole sheet.

[Matt Meiser]

I'm with Joe. Research each tool and buy the best value for your needs based on that rather than brand.

Also, 400sqft is 20x20. If you put a 12" jointer, 20" planer, 18" bandsaw, a huge tablesaw, and a few other large tools you are going to run out of space quick. Remmber you are probably going to need work surfaces, lumber storage, etc. too. And you are going to need some open space for staging.

What types of things do you plan to build? If you want to build jewelry boxes, there's no need for a huge jointer and planer. On the other hand if you want to build high end kitchens, you are going to need finishing space and lots of open floor space.

[Lewis DeJoseph]

Hi,

If I had the chance to build like that I would forgo the sheetrock and limit the pegboard and use some kind of wood on the walls. this is easier to build with and is much more durable. Also paint anything thats left open white to reflect light.

Sounds great. I'm struggling to get a simular shop going, limited budget and all. But I should be up and running within the next month or so.

Have fun.

Lewis

[glenn bradley]

Do a solid job on items 1 through 4 and the rest becomes very flexible.

1. Good electrical
2. HVAC depending on your location
3. Dust control
4. Safety equipment; personal and shop
5. TS or BS
6. Jointer
7. Planer
8. Router(s)
9. Etcetera

[Mike Wilkins]

What the heck. I'll toss my nickels worth in the bucket.
If I were thinking of a jointer and planer in the size you are considering, I would think about a 16" jointer/planer combo. Probably more jointing width than you will ever need, and how often will you need to plane something in the 20" range?
No problem with your tablesaw choice; I have a Unisaw now but looking hard at a slider.
As for wall materials; check out the latest issue of Finewoodworking magazine issue on Tools and Shops. Matthew Teague used drywll on the upper half of the walls, and beadboard on the bottom. Good compromise just in case something bumps the wall. Or use plywood on the entire wall.
My space issues are similar to yours; 16 X 24 with a seperate storage room for lumber and junk. Use as much wall space as you can for wall hung storage cabinets; floor space is at a premium in a shop this small. You can build your miter saw into one of the base cabinets.
Good luck and watch those fingers.