Karl Holtey $5000 ?!?!

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...How many professional woodworkers out there would find this tool a must have? Is this plane that much better than others?

The only full-timer I know that owns a Holtey (actually more than one) is Garrett Hack. Pretty much a professional, eh?

Karl was the first real perfectionist machinist making planes. But he's no longer the only one. nor is he the only one making higher-priced quality planes. Konrad Sauer and Wayne Anderson come to mind. I love the traditional perfection of Konrad's planes and the shear artistic beauty of Wayne's.

I find the conversations over the cost of tools from such makers funny at times. Just what should a man (generic usage btw) earn from his toils? Should he make $10 an hour (or less) so that he can hit a more popular price-point? $20 an hour? $30/hr? More? What exactly would be a fair wage so that they can make the tools they desire to make?

Ah, rant off I suppose.

Take care, Mike
back to lurking--well, actually back to work.

[Ryan Hovis]

I would like to see it compared side by side with a Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen low angle plane. My bet is that it would make the exact same shavings.

[Chris Padilla]

The Holtey infill planes are SO HEAVY. You feel like if you just give it a tiny push that it'll carve its own way through anything below it.

They really are so heavy, so bloody smooth...amazing planes to feel, touch, and cut with. I certainly don't have one but an affluent buddy of mine does and he lets me play with it on occasion.

Why did he pay 3-4-5k for his? Well, because he can afford it and because he simply loves collecting planes of all varieties and can appreciate the handwork that went into making it. Each to their own.

[Jim Koepke]

I just found this plane maker, the pricing seems very high.

Maybe this will put some perspective on those Stanley #4s that go for more than $20 on that auction site that shall not be named.

Just my 2¢

jim

[Derek Cohen]

Like Mike, I am always amused when there is talk of extravagance when spending Big Bucks on tools. What constitutes BB? What is a lot for some is reasonable for another.

It is also a matter of priorities - how much should one spend on a motorcar? And would you rather spend on a motorcar or tools or XYZ?

There is also the assumption that expensive tools reduce profit. But what if profit is not part of the equation, and instead fun and pleasure is?

What would you spend on a set of golf clubs, or a tennis racquet?

When I was racing on the windsurfing circuits, I used to get new boards (usually one, sometimes 2 or even three) every year, plus a set of 4 or 5 sails. This was considerably more costly than woodworking. And I am not wealthy .... just obsessional I do have one rule, however .. all my costs must be born by my profits from or efforts in woodworking (keep in mind that I am not a professional woodworker).

Are the supertools worth it? (I suppose one should also ask "what constitutes a supertool?").

I love my half back Wenzloff saw (and I could include the IT dovetai saw that Mike re-filed for me - that makes it half-a-Wenzloff ). Wenzloff saws must be the cheapest supertools on the market.

There is a law of diminishing returns as the price goes up. But you still get what ou pay for. The Marcou S15 smoother I have is the best smoother I have ever used. It is simply phenomenal. Others here have used one as well (Hi Mark!). It is beautifully made and a special experience to use. The LV BUS is a superb smoother and gives the Marcou a run for its money. However the Marcou is still that much better when the chips are down.

So who buys a Holtey? There are those that do so for art sake, and there are those that buy them as tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Narayan Nayar]

The premium toolmarket seems to have blossomed of late. Not sure why that is--perhaps the cost of working metal in something other than an industrial facility has come down enough. But though I'll probably never own one of those planes, I'm sure glad they are around and there are still people, like Mike, like Konrad, like Jim Leamy, like Thomas L-N, and many others dedicated to artisanal craftsmanship.

As others have already said, $5,000 isn't a lot of money given the time put into making those tools. And you know that people pay a lot more than that for other works of art. Might not make a lot of sense to those of us without the disposable income, but if your gauge for "sensible cost" is just above something which offers sheer utility, it probably doesn't make sense to you that anyone would buy anything other than Ikea furniture. People like Mr. Lie-Nielsen have found ways to balance production runs with cost and quality. Others work to order and their costs generally go up (and if they don't, well, they're doing you an extreme favor, right Mike? ).

Anyway, I'm just beginning to explore this small universe of domestic, small production toolmakers. It'll be some time before I can afford or justify something like a Holtey, and chances are I'll never get there. But even beyond the tools themselves, I'll never cease to admire the dedication and passion these individuals bring to their craft. The artifacts fashioned out of these toolmakers' blood, sweat, and tears make me want to be better at what I do, both at work and in my shop. I for one am very glad that these tools and the people who can afford them exist, if only to show the rest of us that quality and craft can still mean something tangible in this increasingly mass production world.

[Mike Henderson]

Even though this is the Neander forum, I'd buy a SawStop before I bought one of those planes. That plane doesn't retract it's blade if it hits your skin.

But seriously, I'd get a lot more use out of the SawStop.

Mike

[Steve knight]

5000 is on the lower end of his scale. I know guys that own several of his planes.
I see people spend that much on stupid accessories for their cars. far more other things that are nor more useful. what about collectors that spend bucks just to have the item sit around?
I have spoken to Karl a couple of times and he is a nice guy. he only averages 1 plane or so a month. his shop cost him over 100k but he has to make 20 sets of plane parts at a time because of setup times. so he has to sit on all of this material for long periods of time.

[Brian Kent]

5000 is on the lower end of his scale. I know guys that own several of his planes.
I see people spend that much on stupid accessories for their cars.

You got me Steve.

I have a normal middle class income, but I spent an extra $7,000 to get the sedan with the trim level & features I wanted over the same car with the features I needed. That's more than all the power tools, hand tools, wood, and shop improvements I've ever paid for.

Another thing Steve, the planes you make (and Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley) suddenly seem like super bargains instead of just fair-priced.

Brian

[John Shuk]

It'll last longer than what Elliot Spitzer spent his $4300 on.
Some people have the bucks and it really is a gorgeous plane.

[Bruce Haugen]

I probably could afford one, but I'd have to sell my motorcycle to get it.

What!? Not in this lifetime. There are choices to be made here.

Bruce

[Dan Racette]

I think that Derek and Mike have hit it on the head.

First off. I am sure that Mr. Holtey would gladly accept money from non-woodworkers, so us woodworkers need to get it out of our heads that he might be only making planes especially for us. His planes are beautiful. I find it quite amusing and somewhat shortsighted to even try and "compare" his planes to commercial brands, mass produced planes of yesteryear, and the like. I am thinking that a $5000 plane, might have an inventory level of less than 10. Whereas others that have been mentioned that are less than a $100 are in the 1000's.

I know of a company that was going to pull the trigger on his plane for use in a prop in a commercial. $5000, would not have been a big deal for their budget. The focus of the commercial changed and they didn't buy it.

Now back to the original poster. The price of these planes is, indeed, extraordinarily high. I doubt I will have the resources to afford one in my lifetime. There are many other things out there that are also luxuries. That's why we call them luxuries. I commend Mr. Holtey's ability to stay in business, as that is actually the true challenge.

Sam Maloof make's chairs. The run upwards of $30,000. You can buy a chair that you can sit on for a few dollars at many places. You don't often hear people criticizing him for charging to much. He is an artist too.

The arts and crafts are a tricky thing. Those who craft things, try to charge what the market can bear. I have discussed this at length with many crafters. Often times a marked price is negotiated down, much to the dismay of the craftsperson. Many times, this makes the pay of the crafter much less than a regular worker's hourly wage, as others have stated.

Most of us buy from corporation that manage a large sector of our economy. They control costs through mass production and mechanization, with the end goal to get the price to the consumer to be palatable so demand will be high. A single craftsperson often times does not have the means to do that, as there is not the division of labor, or the inefficiencies that come with a corporation, or the massive volume of scale.

Mr. Holtey, I assume, because he is still marketing product, is still thriving in business. I think that's a great accomplishment these days. If he were to ever be "bought out", then comes the compromising, all to lower price. Right now, he seems to be at the "no compromise" stage, and the cost of product reflects that. As someone mentioned, our beloved plane man, Garret Hack, is an owner of his product. He probably HAS to have one, so he can compare to the rest of his repetoire of planes.

I would disagree, though, that his planes make the same shavings as others. I am sure that the no compromise manufacturing, and the sheer heft of the body would make these giants glide across wood with much greater ease than as lighter stanley, lie nielsen, lee valley, etc. This goes to the arguement of why the norris/spiers/ type of Infill planes are such sought after smoothers vs. american planes and why they continue to fetch a high price, even when duplicated.

I would agree with some posters, that $5000 is best spent elsewhere, but that is just a personal choice of using one's resources and not an infringement on Mr. Holtey's right to charge that much or his ability to price appropriately for his product.

Dan

[Marcus Ward]

The premium toolmarket seems to have blossomed of late. Not sure why that is

All boutique markets are up, amplifiers, bicycles, anything custom made that is ridiculously priced. It's because there is a glut of disposable income and credit in the american consumer market, and tons of people who purchase prestige products. For a lot of people, the shorthand to determine value is the cost, and so when they're sitting around in their escalades on their cel phones bragging to their friends bout their 5000$ plane they have a way of indicating the value of the plane to their superficial friends. Frankly I find it all disgusting. I can't believe that plane makes a smoother surface than a well tuned stanley. And that IS what it is all about, the surface it leaves. Those of you who always claim a plane makes nice shavings well... my boat makes a nice wake, but that's not the purpose of the boat and measuring it's performance that way is goofy. </rant>

[Mark Singer]

The Hotleys, Marcou's and other fine planes are a joy to use. I have had the pleasure of reviewing the Marcou. These planes are terrific not really everyday users in my opinion. Not something you must have to be a great woodworker or even produce great pieces of furniture. There is a lot of factors in the hand planing of wood as I point out in my review. For most of us a $300 smoother or even a $150 ECE is plenty of plane. Learning how and when is a completely different subject. See the review below...

http://www.marcouplanes.com/reviews/marcouR/marcou1.asp

[Steve Wargo]

I'll chime in on this one... as I usually due. There is a difference between the Holtey and a Lie Nielsen. I've had the opportunity to play with a few Holteys, Anderson, Sauer and Stiener (which I own *Drive by Gloat*) and many of the other infill plane makers of today. There is a definite difference in performance, finish of the surface, feel and over all feeling you get from using these planes. They are not for everyone, I have a full stable of LN bench planes. They are great. They perform as they should, but they pale in comparison to most of the high-end infills I've used. Now believe me when I say that the difference is not the same as between say a Craftsman handyman and a LN smoother, but there is a difference. If you've used one of these fine planes then you understand why they're purchased. I've never talked to anyone who's used a Holtey, Sauer and Steiner or the likes and not said "WOW, I'd like to have one of those". The problem lies in the cost. If they were the same price as a LN then many corners would be cut to create such works of art. I know for a fact that the infill for many of the planes alone can cost $200-$400 just for the stock. And we still haven't started making the plane yet. So they certainly have a purpose. For some they are eye candy, for others they get regular use in the shop. IMHO some of them are worth the money and others are not. I'm rambling now, so I'll go. But if anyone's ever in the Cleveland area you're more than welcome to stop over and compare the difference.