Buying and Cleaning Woodys

[Johnny Kleso]

I am far from an expert on woodys so if any one can enlighten me please do...

Below is several pics of planes I just won last week..
(drive by gloat)

I was lucky and got this whole lot for $264 delivered

98% of the planes are a very good english maker W. Greenslade Bristol and 98% of the planes are marked with only one owners name Bm (Benjamin) Roberts the other 2% Wm (William) Thomas' name as well This is pretty rare to fine these many one owner planes at least for me



You can se the Hollows and Round planes have been lighty sanded to remove the dirt.. They looked just like the beading planes and after I applied the Bri-Wax and polished the with a cotton cloth.. I think the transformation is stunning..



There are five Beading Planes mostly used by Carpenters not cabinet makers from what I read and three Molding planes used by cabinet makers and carpenters




Home made marking gauges and 2/3s of a Moving Filister Plane Chopped Up and shaped into a rabbit plane..








I'll go over what stamps say ..
All but two planes are stamped
W Greenslade Bristol, England. It was a long-live company
(1828-1937) and one of the last to make wooden planes.

The Smoother is makers Henry Thomas Birmigham and Street Address
Trying plane is unstamped execpt Ohio Tool Co. on blade..

About 1/2 Greenslades are stamped Exhibition Medals London 1862 and Dublin1885 this dates the plane to between 1865 and 1880..

Some have a double stamps that says EJ Griffith's Iron Monger Llanelly on the tail with W Greenslade on the toe.. A monger is a Worker so maybe they just made the blades..

All planes are stamped with owners mark Bm Roberts and 2% with Wm Thomas name as well Roberts..

I have three marking gauges stamped Roberts and just a base of one marked Thomas



Here you can see the Rays of quarter saw Beech I just read in a magazine where it showed what looked like cracks that ran with the grain as beening Rays and also showed Vessels like Mahogany has.. I always thought Rays are the vertical figure you see clear on the first plane, not long horozontal crack like (vessel) lines, that look like the short vessel lines in mahogany...



Here are three modling planes that often go for big $$
These go for about $30-$40 each in this size, wider planes as much as $100 or higher..



Beading plane profiles seen above.. Often the least expensive, about $10-$15 each



Here is the 2 1/2" smoother, when buying woodys you want to make sure there are NO CRACKS (Checks) if possible..

The longer trying plane near begining is the only US made plane and is not owner marked and was full of checks.. The blade had only 1/16" before it was all used up.. It had checks on sole and both ends but not super bad but not worth buying... By looking at the photos of the Trying plane in in pictures at top it looks to be the best condtion plane of the lot as it is not been cleaned.. So remember to make sure you get pics of toe, heel and sole before buying a woody..

All in all I am so happy with these planes and seller inclused the home made making gauges as well..

I just wish these planes could talk

Have a good day I did...

[Bob Smalser]

You can se the Hollows and Round planes have been lighty sanded to remove the dirt..

AHHHRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Never, ever sand an antique except as necessary where you're made a repair...and then only the new wood, not the old. I hope you demanded a big discount because of that.

Use nothing coarser than #0000 steel wool and mineral spirits to clean old wood. You'll hear antique fans talk about oil soap, a coarse sponge and warm water, but I wouldn't apply that to a wooden plane.

Afterwards rub in a light coat of raw tung oil or paste wax to the wood, and that's all these need.

Paint and other goo splatter that doesn't belong can be safely removed using Formby's Refinisher (a trichloroethylene product - wear thick rubber gloves) and #0000 wool. Only if some idiot applied polyurethane will you have to resort to stronger paint strippers.....and in that case I'd probably leave the poly alone.

Of course there are planes and then there are planes, your molders being more important and more valuable than a run-of-the-mill coffin smoother where nobody cares much about historical integrity. But that's only for now. A hundred years from now I'd get hammered for converting all those good originals into spar planes.

[Johnny Kleso]

Bob,
I know you know way more then I..
Does it hurt the plane or just the value?

I'm not one to worry about the value but if it makes the planes warp out of shape more then I would worry..

The planes almost had a fuzzy feel from all the years of dust and just MS they still had his fuzzy feel..

I though if I waxed them they would feel like they had a thick coat of waxed fuzz

[Mike Henderson]

Never, ever sand an antique except as necessary where you're made a repair...and then only the new wood, not the old.

I'm interested in why you recommend this, also. Those planes do not seem to be particular rare. When I get an old plane, either wood or metal, I clean it to make it look as close to new as I can get it. I just don't like working with grungy, beat-up tools. If a tool has real historical value it doesn't belong in my shop - it belongs in a museum.

I fall into that same category with furniture. I would never live with ratty old antiques where people won't clean them up or change the dirty upholstery for fear of affecting the value.

Mike

[Bob Smalser]

Does it hurt the plane or just the value?

I though if I waxed them they would feel like they had a thick coat of waxed fuzz

What even light sanding does is remove all that priceless age patina that took 80 years to develop beneath the dirt. Why remove more than the dirt anyway? Sanding just makes more work besides ruining the piece's value as an antique.

Then there is the dynamic that if somebody's ignorant enough to sand an antique, they likely also sanded it very badly. Your planes are likely all hard beech, and shouldn't either be fuzzy or show scratch marks. I'd have to see them to recommend where to go from here. Scratch marks across the grain in beech may have to remain there if spot steaming and fine paper won't remove them.



As a machinist, you can appreciate that the grandson of the late owner of a priceless WWI relic doesn't have a clue how to "clean up" the piece, let alone using hammer, punch and sandpaper. While I can't replace even 20% of the lost value, I can still make out handsomely for myself while providing the family good return on investment.

[Stephen Shepherd]

I have to agree with Bob.

While these planes may be common now, in one hundred years they will not. They don't make 'antiques' any more. To be an antique it must be 100 years old and 80% original (U.S. Customs standard). But patina is everything and daily use doesn't hurt wooden planes, it helps them keep in good order.

Whether a tool should be used or should be in a museum is a bit of a conundrum for me, as I work in a living history museum, so my common pieces are museum pieces along side my museum pieces.

I do admit that I will wash of grime with soap and water, but without soaking. Also an unsharpened scraper can be passed over surfaces to remove paint spots. I only sand wedges, if necessary and just the part in the body, not the part exposed.

Stephen

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm in Bob and Stephen's camp on this one. On both of my sets of hollows and rounds and other molding planes I've done nothing more than clean off the grime and crud with mineral spirits and steel wool. The exception to this is after checking the fit of the wedges. If the plane body has shrunk and is too tight, and the wedge mortise is slick and cruddy, I will either use sandpaper wrapped around an appropriately shaped sliver of wood or a plane float to dress it to an appropriate size. This must be done VERY carefull so that the mortise does not become loose. Other than that, all of my attention is spent on getting the iron shaped properly and sharpened for use.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I agree with Bob, Stephen & Dave. I only clean up with 0000 steel wool and mineral spirits. Then they get a coat of Howard Feed-N-Wax which is a blend of beeswax, carnauba wax & orange oil (in a mild solvent base to keep it fluid). The oil/wax blend sits on the wood for 15-20 minutes and then gets wiped off.

Planes start out like this:
WoodieBefore.jpg

And end up like this:
WoodieAfter.jpg

Here's the stuff. I think Formby's make's a similar product. It's made for use after a refinisher.
Feed-N-Wax.jpg

[Wilbur Pan]

What even light sanding does is remove all that priceless age patina that took 80 years to develop beneath the dirt.

So just to play devil's advocate, why is patina priceless? Isn't that just an aesthetic consideration to some extent?

I would understand more if patina actually played some protective function for the plane. Maybe it does, and I'm just being ignorant here, in which case I'll withdraw the question.

But it seems to me that for hand tools, there seems to be a bit of a dichotomy in the value of patina:

Wooden planes: patina good
Metal planes: patina is disposable
Hand saws: patina good
Chisels: patina is disposable

And just to clarify, I'm not talking just about the functional areas of these tools. I've seen many examples of metal planes where the restoration process removed patina from noncritical areas, such as the sides of the plane as opposed to the sole, or in the case restoring a chisel, cleaning up the shaft of a chisel, away from the cutting edge. And I really do mean patina, not rust.

As far as the value of these planes goes, a new half set of hollows and rounds from Clark & Williams is going for $2455. The only other commercial source I know for 18th century style hollows and rounds is Philly Planes in the UK, at £120 for a matched pair, which converts to about $2150 for a half set at today's exchange rates. I've seen used/antique matched half sets of hollows and rounds sell for around $500, with one set with an asking price of $1200. (That one doesn't seem to be selling.) As long as the prices of used wooden planes continues to be well below that of new ones, I'm not sure that the value of old wooden planes is as high as we might think.

[Robert Rozaieski]

So just to play devil's advocate, why is patina priceless? Isn't that just an aesthetic consideration to some extent?

I'll take a stab at this, but keep in mind this is my own opinion and I am by no means an expert. Also, keep in mind, I care not about collector value. No collector will ever want my tools since 1) I use them, they never just sit on a shelf, 2) none of my tools are rare or particularly valuable as I can't afford to purchase this variety and 3) most of my tools were already way below collector value when I bought them and no amount of restoration will make them desireable to a collector.

In my opinion, the arguement not to overdo metal planes, saws, chisels, etc. is pure an issue of collector value so I say clean them to look like new if that's what you want and and you plan to use them. If you want them as collector pieces, then don't touch them. Of course, with truly rare collector pieces like antique furniture, guns, truly rare tools, etc., I'm all in favor of leaving them alone as you will likely do more harm than good, as Bob pointed out above.

Now, with wooden planes, my motives are slightly different. Collector value isn't a big issue unless you have something truly rare or in pristine, unused condition, in which case, the price will likely dissuade you from buying it in the first place. For user grade tools, I still try not to overdo the cleaning. Any time you expose fresh wood of anything old and made of wood (furniture, tools, etc.) you open it up to additional moisture ingress and potential movement. The patina on the outside of planes is accumulated oils from workers' hands and also the burnished surface of the wood from decades of handling. When you plane or sand these surfaces you remove these and expose fresh wood. This allows the potential for additional wood movement. Note I said potential. I have no scientific evidence to say that this will happen, but it could. With wooden planes, movement of the stock can ruin the useability of the tool. With metal tools, movement can still occur but is less of an issue as it is less pronounced. Maybe, it's not that big of an issue with wooden planes either, but I like to play it safe as I want to be able to use them for a long time. I don't even like to flatten the soles of my wooden planes for the same reason unless they really need it. If I do, I apply a heavy coat of wax to the sole and let it sit for a few weeks before I touch it in case it moves. Again, maybe I'm overly cautious but I don't want to ruin the useability of the tool.

[Stephen Shepherd]

Wilbur,

That is a very good observation, here is a correlative, talking of old things:

Brass Musical Instruments the patina is polished away
Wooden Stringed instruments keep the patina

Antique Silver objects are polished bright
Antique wooden furniture should not

You treat the wooden handle of an old saw differently than you threat the blade, at least I do.

I have no problem removing rust from tools, that is not patina, and I have no issues with restoring the metal to original bright or blued condition as this will preserve the blade and make it easier to use. This is probably a whole other topic.

Stephen

[Bob Smalser]

So just to play devil's advocate, why is patina priceless? Isn't that just an aesthetic consideration to some extent?

1) Because on wood patina has a glow about it that can't be easily faked like it can on steel. Collector value involves a heckuva lot more than what it will sell for today. On steel it's just hard, rubbed-out rust duplicated to perfection daily today by the makers of antique black powder reproductions. I can teach you how to do it in 10 minutes.

2) Those that don't understand are more likely to mess up an antique more important than a molding plane.

3) Those tools will outlive you, and any sense of propriety handling objects of importance no longer made should make you feel you owe something to the next owner. Tools unimportant now will have a different value a hundred years from now, and if you like this kind of history you should be thinking further ahead than the end of your nose. But junk glues and building things than can easily be repaired is a problem with modern woodworking, too....isn't it?


While I modify old coffin smoothers regularly to suit my purposes, I've never had one this nice and would preserve this one as an original:

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hmm, all interesting I suppose.

One factor not mentioned when talking antiques is whether it is a product made by the bazillions and commingly available. Greenslade is one such maker. An incredibly easy maker to find in the wild.

Even Bob's example of patching mouths is an anathema to collectors. Same with making a saw blade bright, repairing the horns on a saw, gluing cracks in handles, repairing/replacing jappaning on metal planes, etc.

It is to a great extent a personal line to draw that may not be applicable to everyone--anything one might do will raise the hackles of someone somewhere.

My personal line is pretty non-existent. There are few exceptions amongst the vintage tools I own. I clean, polish, grind blades that are now too wide to fit and or widen the escapment at will. Nothing anyone says or writes will change that fact.

My personal exceptions include a few 18th century planes and a couple saws from that era. I did what I consider a minimum amount of work on them. But I do use them and a couple are extremel rare. They are tools to be used.

Talk about honoring the past, aside from being a relatively modern sentiment, honoring the past includes using the dang things. Our "ancestors" wouldn't understand our modern idea of honor as not using them. Of course, they probably wouldn't understand the relatively modern idea of making a tool look better than new or putting such effort into the tools we buy as many do, either.

So RB, I think the onus is on you to decide what you will for these tools and stay true to that.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Talk about honoring the past, aside from being a relatively modern sentiment, honoring the past includes using the dang things. Our "ancestors" wouldn't understand our modern idea of honor as not using them.

Mike's statement pretty much sums up my feelings. The things I do to clean up an old tool are just part of the life of that tool, the same as whatever the person who used it 100 years ago did to it when they were using it. To me, they are TOOLS and not museum items. Tools wear out if used - and I buy older tools to use. And the reason I buy the older tool is because it's less expensive than a new one. People like me will be priced out of the market as soon as the tools become rare enough and desirable enough that people are willing to pay more than a new tool for them.

There's a limit to preservation. Should we preserve every iPod made today because one day it might be an antique?

I'll also point out that when someone buys a tool, they own it and can do whatever they want with it.

Mike

[I would challenge each of you to give value to your old tools by using them to make something. For example, I can imagine someone saying, "This old tool was used by Sam Maloof to build his rockers. It's pretty worn out but it means a lot to me."]

[Peter Quadarella]

I'm having a hard time placing a WWI era S&W with a shrouded extractor rod, but I'm not a very serious collector. However, showing that picture reminds of the constant contention with gun owners between those who keep "safe queens" and those who prefer to use their old guns. I have to say that unless you are purely collecting, or unless your item is so rare that you may damage something unique in the world, I'd much prefer to get real use out of the item. These things were made to be used as tools, not to sit on a shelf, in my opinion.