Consumer vs. Pro Finishes

[Jim Becker]

Rob, I tried the Target "shellac" product and wasn't pleased with either the coloration or, strangely enough, the fact that it was water borne. The primary reasons I use shellac are for color and as a barrier coat over water soluble dye or BLO prior to moving on with the USL I typically spray. The second one is most important to me, so the Zinsser SealCoat or a mixed-from-flakes de-waxed shellac (for color) is a staple for me in finishing.
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Sal, yes I always strain finishes going into the gun...and when returning them to the container from the gun if I don't use up what I've had in the pot. The strainer/filters cost about 17 cents each at the 'borg and I bought a whole box of them a few years ago...

[Rob Cunningham]

Jim, I agree that Target shellac does not have the same color depth as Zinsser's. I have mainly used Target as a washcoat before staining and also as a sealer over their Ultmia stains. Over BLO I would definitely use the Zinssers. Have you had any problems with USL over Zinssers Sealcoat? I have heard of some WB finishes crazing when applied over Sealcoat.
Sorry Sal didn't mean to hijack your thread.

[Jim Becker]

Rob, I use the SealCoat under the USL all the time with zero problems.

[Sal Giambruno]

Rob, I use the SealCoat under the USL all the time with zero problems.

This one looks like a no-brainer at first glance . . . I can get a product that performs well from my local retailer (and I imagine even at a Circle-K in some parts) - which sure beats having to wait a week to get it . . .

I don't see any inherent advantage in the Target Sealer, other than maybe it not being prone to exploding, and having a water-based cleanup. The lack of color, though, may be viewed as a neutral characteristic. That is, while it lacks color, by the same token, wouldn't it provide some flexibility in adding a dye for toning or shading where yellow (or orange) is not a desireable part of the recipe. In the end, it sounds like a toss-up.

[Jim Becker]

Sal, the Target shellac product is not "water based". It's water borne, same as the rest of the products. It's still shellac with it's reducer/solvent emulsified into a water carrier. I know this seems like nit-picking but "water based" and "water borne" really do mean two different things. Unfortunately, even the pros who write about the stuff (or their editors...) use the word "based" too much, IMHO.

Oh, the Target shellac does have color...I just don't happen to like it.

I've never been concerned with explosions with shellac, personally.

[Sal Giambruno]

Jim, I knew that, and am very careful to use the proper wording for it. In my post above, I said it was a water-based cleanup, not a cleanup of a water-based product, and technically, it is correct to call a water-based cleanup as such.

I know what you mean though, the terms water-based and water-borne are used intechangably - even Flexner calls them water-based.

Which reminds me . . . Flexner also says that ANY finish can be thinned - and he made no exception for water-borne finishes.

On another note, Flexner also goes on a rant against air quality enforcement agencies such as the SCAQMD, which happens to have the strictest VOC rules in the country (wouldn't you know I live in this district). He goes on to say that all the painting of homes, finishing of furniture and painting of buildings, bridges, etc, amounts to less than 1% of all VOC discharged into the atmosphere, and that these agencies should basically focus on more important areas of air pollution rather than hampering our abilitiy to put a good finish on a fine piece of furniture. I couldn't agree with him more. Just imagine how much VOC and particulate pollution is cause by lawnmowers and leafblowers, let alone automobile emissions . . .

[Steve Schoene]

But, remember when Flexner is saying "all finishes can be thinned" it is in the context of explaining why you can ignore the do not thin directions that manufacturers put on labels of oil based finishes. This is in the chapter "Introduction to Film Finishes". Later, in the chapter; "Water-based Finishes", he says "You can thin the finish with 10 - 20 percent water to make it spray or brush easier, but it is best to avoid doing this." Italics added, p. 176 point 5.

Lawnmowers, and outboard engines, are now at least making their contribution toward reduction of VOCs with the shift in many areas to 4 cycle engines.

[Sal Giambruno]

I'll buy that, Steve.

That solves two things:
1) It corrects my out-of-context paraphrase and
2) Now I know where I read about limited thinning of water-borne finishes.

Are you a lawyer by any chance?

[Bill Arnold]

I used Target products for the first time on kitchen island countertop I finished recently. Like Jim, I like to start with BLO (actually a 1/1 BLO/Naphtha mix) and seal it with Sealcoat. I used Target EM8800 clear sealer with a small amount of TT Brown Mahogany dye, then topcoats of EM8000cv pre-cat for toughness. I was impressed with the way the Target products filled my veneer with oak frame and levelled well.

When I bought the Target products, I also got a gallon of USL to use on "regular" furniture. I'll be spraying some items with it in the next few days.

[Rob Cunningham]

Sal, both the Target and Zinsser shellac will accept Trans-Tint dyes if you want to use them for toning or shading. The Target shellac does have an amber tone to it but not as much as Zinsser. (It is available in garnet and golden red also but I haven't tried them) Unless you are spraying in an enclosed room with no air movement, I wouldn't be concerned about explosion with shellac either.
As far as sandpaper, I have had good results with 3M 216U sheets, purchased from Homestead Finishing. I use it for sanding raw wood before finishing and also for between coat sanding. Never had any contamination problems using it with waterborne finishes.

Bill- How did you like the EM-8000? Did it spray and level out well?

[Sal Giambruno]

Rob, thanks for the great info. I may pick some of that 3M 216U up when I place my order. On a related note, do you know if there's any real difference between steel wool you buy at the Borgs versus some of the premium steel wool that claims to have a super-low oil content? I've used off-the-shelf stuff for rubbing out shellac and once attempted it on PolyCrylic, with less-than-consistent results, and am wondering if "oily" steel wool might be the problem, or if that's just marketing hype.

[Bill Arnold]

...
Bill- How did you like the EM-8000? Did it spray and level out well?

Rob,

Yes, spraying and leveling with the EM8000 was no problem at all. I sprayed it straight from the can and it worked just fine. I thought about adding about 5% SA6 retarder, but it went on well without it.

[Sal Giambruno]

Bill, let us know how you like the USL.

It seems a lot of guys on this forum use BLO for starters - that's interesting. Going to have to revisit that can of BLO I haven't much considered using.

[Rob Cunningham]

Sal, I don't use steel wool but use the synthetic steel wool. If you are placing an order with Homestead get some of the synthetic, then you don't have to worry about the oil content. Also, you should avoid steel wool when using WB finishes if you use it for inter coat sanding.
If you are ordering Target products, they do have a distributor in CA. You might be able to get it faster than a week if you are in a hurry.

[Sal Giambruno]

Rob,

Now that I think about it, I did in fact check out Target Finishes' distributor list, but thought I would support Homestead and build up some goodwill with them, since they seem to be the go-to store, at least on these forums.

As much as I'd rather use the non-woven abrasive pads (and I am starting to take a liking to them), the affordability, range of grades available and maneuverability of steel wool in tight spots and non-flat surfaces makes me reach for it rather than the pads. I always avoid using it in conjunction with water-borne finishing, but the reminder never hurts.

Thanks!