Kitchen renovation questions

[Frank Martin]

We are buying a new house which needs a new kitchen. I spoke with couple contractors and don't like what I hear so far. To minimize the pain, I was hoping they could plan everything and even order cabinets in advance before removing the old stuff and then quickly install the new kitchen in a few weeks. This renovation does not involve demolishing any walls, etc. Both contractors said that they would need to demolish the existing kitchen then take measurements for the cabinets and everyhing else, then install the new cabinets and appliances. This whole thing would require about four months. I don't know why they cannot take measurements for the new cabinets while the existing kitchen is still in place. But they insist that need to demo first.

Is this pretty typical or are they trying to do it this way to avoid the risk of a customer changing their minds?

I know at least several people renovated their own kitchens. Did you demo first then start building the cabinets (when all the walls etc, remain as they are) or did you build at least most of the cabinets and then start demolition?

Thanks!!

[Paul Greathouse]

Frank

I'm not sure what their reasoning for demo'ing first would be, but proper measurements can be taken before anything is removed. Then the whole kitchen can be built in their shop and transported to your house after demo has taken place.

Several years back when things were tight for us financially, I did cabinet work part-time. I wasn't a pro but I did quality work and had all the work I wanted and more. The big shops and the full-timers were doing all the new home construction and didn't want to mess with remodels. I can understand that, remodels can be a pain, working in someones home while they are living there isn't always easy.

How is the housing industry in your area? If it is strong then maybe these guys don't want to be bothered with a remodel and are giving you the 4 month horror story because they are not interested in the job.

To give you an idea of how much time it should take:
I used to be able to demo a complete kitchen in a day or less by myself. A few months ago my son and I installed a complete kitchen in his new home and the install only took about four days. The cabinets that we installed were built by us in my shop before-hand. The first two days included hanging and attaching the cabinets and wiring appliances. I spent another day installing the countertop and then probably a little less than a day installing the crown molding around the top of the cabinets. Somewhere in there I installed the sink and my son plumbed it.

Get some more bids and let them know up front that you want the new cabinets ready to install before the demo takes place.

[Lucas Bittick]

You didn't mention the age of your new house. Out of curiosity-- what kind of cabinets do you have right now? And, how much do you plan to change the layout of the kitchen? Will you move plumbing, etc.?

If your cabinets were built for the house, then you probably have more options than if the cabinets are modular pre-fabs. Depending on what you change, you may not have to demolish all the cabinetry. It sounds odd to me also that your contractors want to demolish the kitchen before measuring.

I have had some enlightening moments remodeling our new house. Based on what you have written already, there are some things to be cautious about. First, keep in mind that any construction project will cost more and take longer than you initially think. Second, as much as you can envision the changes you want, I can make a good case for living in the house a bit before committing to radical changes. You can then design your remodel around how you actually live in the space. Third, there are a lot of things to manage when buying a house and moving in. Managing a construction project around the same time as that event is very stressful and frustrating. Additionally, by adding a sense of urgency to the kitchen project, you might overlook other essential elements involved in assuming ownership of the property, as well as losing leverage with contractors. (If I walk into a car dealership and signal that I need a car right now, I surely will not get a good deal. Same goes for contractors).

Not knowing your exact situation, I can make a good case for being willing to wait. You won't feel under the gun, and can take some time to scout out reputable contractors, plan your design, and price the project, without dealing with moving, etc. A few years from now, you won't care if the project took a while, but you will care if you overpaid for a design that doesn't suit your life.

Sorry for being long-winded!

[Roger Ronas]

I agree that unless your changing the layout or having to move electrical or plumbing, they are pulling your chain. Also possible that they are under the opinion that if you are demoed, then your stuck with them and any news they have for you later on. ie: more costs then you agreed to or settling for something less then originaly quoted.

HTH
Roger

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I renovated kitchens in a former life. I would always design and order cabinets well in advance prior to starting work. Depending on where the cabinets are ordered, they may take anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks.

As Paul stated, the contractor or cabinet designer should take dimensions. Since you are not moving walls, this is a no brainer. If electrical or plumbing mods are required, this is irrelevant as far as upfront ordering of the cabinets.

When I did this work, I would also like to see the new appliances and the sink on-site prior to beginning demo to ensure everything fits the plan. It reduces schedule risk for the installer, and less down time on the kitchen for the homeowner.

A typical kitchen without major wall modifications should take about 3 to 4 weeks including countertop and flooring.

Good luck.

-Jeff

[Frank Martin]

Thanks for all the responses. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear.

I like the suggestion of living in the place for a while before committing to this.

The closing is at the end of this month. Looks like the better option is to just worry about the move for now then continue looking for a contractor who is willing to work with us to finish it up in several weeks as opposed to four months.

The house is in Southern California. I was built in 1990, actually the existing oak cabinets are in good condition. But there are several things that we don't like about it. We don't like oak, prefer cherry or maple. More importantly the countertops are tile, not granite...

Thanks again!!!

[fRED mCnEILL]

I Agree with Lucas in that, if you can, live in it for a while before you renovate.

I renovated our kitchen about 5 years ago and to this day my wife says there is absolutely nothing she would change. And the reason for this is that when planning the reno we looked at how we lived in our house i.e. kitchen, and made changes that enhanced how we lived rather than changing it. And you won't know this until you have lived in it for a while.

To illustrate this I read a story by a reno contractor who did a reno for a couple, both of whom were doctors. In their old kitchen they were in the habit of keeping a garbage bag on the floor next to the sink. They did an expensive reno which involved putting in a fancy garbage solution. A year later the contractor went back to the home and found-you guessed it-a garbage bag on the floor next to the sink. The moral here, of course, is that you should renovate to improve on the design you have rather than make a big change that may not fit how you live.

And to answer your question on time frame I pre-built my cabinets. The time from demo to completion of the reno, including a new hardwood floor was approx 30 days. This was doing most of the work myself(except the floor)4 months is rediculous.

A friend did a ren odue to water pipes freezing. So the kitchen was already demoed. She ordered Ikea cabinets and the cabinets were installed in a day or two. With Ikea you can order what you want and take it home with you the saem day.

Good luck

Fred

[Chris Weishaar]

Frank,

As others have pointed out, there is no need to take as-builts for the cabinets. If there is an area where the cabinets will be tight and the walls may change the contractor can use a field cut filler piece in that area.

The counter top however is usually templated after the cabinets are installed. It will prbably take a week or two from finished cabinet install for the counters to be templated, cut and installed.

We did our kitchen last year and it was about 6 weeks to demo, re-frame, re plumb, electrical, sheetrock, tile, cabinets and countertop. I only hired out the cabinets, electrical and sheetrocking. Lots of long hours but doable.

The way things are slowing down, move into the house and wait a couple of months. Take your time and find a good contractor who can meet your timeframe and budget.

Chris

[Steve Clardy]

I don't understand the 4 months

Many times I have measured up a new set of cabinets for replacing existing cabinets that are in place.
Built cabs in shop and ready to install.
Either I or the homeowner demo'ed the old cabs in 1 day, and I was there the next day installing cabinets. I usually had them ready to cook in 2 days or less.

[Eric Larsen]

I second the notion of doing nothing for awhile.

Live in the house awhile. If you're anything like me, the kitchen will be the second most used room in the house.

First, I'd go to www.hardwarehut.com and check out all the ways to trick out your kitchen. See which ones you like, and which ones don't make sense for your lifestyle.

Figure out where you want things to go -- spices, cans, dinnerware, cooking equipment, etc.

I'd also use and abuse that tile counter for awhile before laying down the pricey granite.

Thanks for all the responses. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear.

I like the suggestion of living in the place for a while before committing to this.

The closing is at the end of this month. Looks like the better option is to just worry about the move for now then continue looking for a contractor who is willing to work with us to finish it up in several weeks as opposed to four months.

The house is in Southern California. I was built in 1990, actually the existing oak cabinets are in good condition. But there are several things that we don't like about it. We don't like oak, prefer cherry or maple. More importantly the countertops are tile, not granite...

Thanks again!!!

[Joe Fusco]

Find new contractors. . .

[Gene Michael]

After you get used to the house for a while, consider talking with custom cabinet makers yourself. Same if there will be electrical work - talk directly with an electrician or two. Then, check with the local Building Dept regarding permits. Armed with this information, you may want to list yourself as the contractor and sub out the work.

I've done this on three houses and saved tons of $$$, not to mention learning a lot. In our current house, we got quotes from the borgs (high$ and low quality - veneer over particle board), then to a few large custom shops. Finally ended up with an excellent cabinet maker in a rural area. He did everything - measurements, estimates and installation. Because we've had poor experience with laquer finishes in a kitchen environment before, I did the staining and finishing using poly and he reduced his prices accordingly. This is far more flexibility than you'll get with a contractor.

Whatever you decide, best wishes to you and your wife in your new home.

[Joe Vincent]

As others have recommended, wait until you've lived in the house for a bit before deciding exactly what you want to do with your cabinets. Besides, there may be some other stuff that comes to light once you're in the house that you decide are higher priorities.

[Daniel Hillmer]

We are buying a new house which needs a new kitchen. I spoke with couple contractors and don't like what I hear so far. To minimize the pain, I was hoping they could plan everything and even order cabinets in advance before removing the old stuff and then quickly install the new kitchen in a few weeks. This renovation does not involve demolishing any walls, etc. Both contractors said that they would need to demolish the existing kitchen then take measurements for the cabinets and everyhing else, then install the new cabinets and appliances. This whole thing would require about four months. I don't know why they cannot take measurements for the new cabinets while the existing kitchen is still in place. But they insist that need to demo first.

Is this pretty typical or are they trying to do it this way to avoid the risk of a customer changing their minds?

I know at least several people renovated their own kitchens. Did you demo first then start building the cabinets (when all the walls etc, remain as they are) or did you build at least most of the cabinets and then start demolition?

Thanks!!

Do you have a garage to work in?

This is exactly how I got into woodworking last year - we needed to remodel our disgusting kitchen, we got quotes and for the entire job it would have cost about ten grand just for cabinets and install, not including any demolition, electrical, plumbing, etc. I decided to do it myself, the materials including wood and hardware are costing about three grand, and the tools to do it, including a table saw, festool equipment, router and some other stuff cost all together about five grand (although I am now buying some more tools for the job that are not required, I just want them because they make the job easier – but you could get most everything you need for I think less than five grand tool wise). So doing it yourself is really about the same price as hiring it out if you get fancy with the tools - the big advantage, is that you get the exact kitchen you want, exact design you want with no wasted space, no fillers, and much better quality because I am using at least b grade cabinet grade plywood and top of the line hardware, select grade hardwood, unlike the cheap hardware and particle board that the vast majority of kitchen cabinet builders use.

And no, I have never done woodworking before building the kitchen, other than a couple of years in middle school and one year in high school wood shop.

And when you are done, you have all the tools you need for any project around the house, build that coffee table your wife always wanted, or if you need the money, sell all the tools on eBay and end up with a better kitchen, the exact kitchen you want, at less than half the price!

The best part about doing it yourself, is that as you build your cabinets, when you start building the next one, as you learn, you can constantly modify and update your design if the wife changes her mind and wants’ something different. You can keep changing your design right up until the time you start cutting wood! It’s great.

And I do agree, it’s better to live there for a while first, that way you really know what you want in your kitchen.

I just finished building eight base cabinets and five wall cabinets. I’m now starting on building the drawers and doors – prior to this I completely demolished the kitchen because we had to re route some plumbing and wiring, tore out three small walls built three new ones, I did that myself too and saved a bundle, added recessed lighting to the ceiling last year, a lot of work but great savings in the end. I had never done plumbing prior to this either, I just got all the education I needed from the master plumber gal at Lowes. Can now make great copper tubing weld joints. Just about everything you need to know you can learn from the folks at home depot or lowes and your local electrical supplier. For the cabinets you can get great info just by reading the threads here, you don't even have to post - just do searches for your topic of interest. Also wired up my garage for 240 volt service for my heavy tools, cost me about about 300 bucks for the service panel, wire, conduit and outlets from my local electric supplier - electrical contractor wanted 1,500 bucks to do this job.

[Matt Ocel]

Frank,

Nothing much can be added to these responses.

With proper scheduling and planning, and assuming new cabinets, couter tops and flooring, I'd say 7 to 10 working days.