CNC. Is it really woodworking?

[Chris Padilla]

It's not about the tools...

What??!!

Keith, Keith, Keith...it is ALL about the tools!!!

[JayStPeter]

What??!!

Keith, Keith, Keith...it is ALL about the tools!!!

Sorry Chris, but you have some catching up to do compared to Keith

I do wish I had one of those large crates like the one in your garage though

Jay

[Keith Christopher]

wood, metal or glass. If you made a wooden bowl by rubbing your blank with rocks would you be a woodworker? I think so.

Inc Gloat ! this is a LN 1000BC makes the best dents for the money !

[JayStPeter]

Inc Gloat ! this is a LN 1000BC makes the best dents for the money !

You spent way too much for that. You shoulda bought a well used Stanley.

[Greg Mann]

Here's my take: Say I take a piece of wood and run it through a shaper or tablesaw with a stock feeder. Is that woodworking? Is it craftsmanship? The blank was turned into a part while the human just fed it into the machine.

I don't see how CNC is any different. It's just another way to turn a blank into a part. I'd love to have CNC machines, it would be good fun.

If you've ever worked at a place that builds prototypes using CNC, you will realize that these guys are just a different breed of craftsman. They have to design parts, program the machine, and build jigs to hold the parts during the process. Believe it or not, plenty of mistakes are usually made.

It's not like you just throw a log in and pull out a chair.

To me, a craftsman is someone who can build something nice from start to finish using knowledge and tools collected over time. What knowledge and which tools are mostly irrelevant.

Once CNC machines are put onto a factory floor to turn out thousands of copies, the craftsmanship is mostly gone. But that first prototype ...

Jay

Jay,

You are right. CNC is just another way of saying 'motion control'. The allure is in the ability to define it electronically and 'memorize' it for future use. The art and craftmanship are not gone but resident in the programs; they have originated in the mind of the programmer. Another benefit is that programs can be tweaked and refined over time so that the process produces better results as the experience of the programmer/craftsman improves, in other words, better craftmanship. In the end, it is the same as any other tool, except that it has the potential to be more consistent than human muscle memory. I am sure we will see more use of CNC as the cost of it comes down.

Woodworking lends itself to its use in many ways. For example, the machines can be far less expensive that metalworking CNCs because it takes so much less force to remove material. A router makes a wonderful milling spindle pretty much out of the box. Guiderails can be aluminum and UHMW instead of 5 to 20 tons of grey iron.

Greg

[Ian Barley]

"Craftsmanship" is one of those big ethereal words that has as many uses as it has users. I make series stuff that is cut on a pin guided pattern router or using templates. I shape it on spindle moulders using power feed. I describe myself as a manufacturer because repetition and volume is what is important to me. I have heard many of my customers describe me as a craftsman because each of the pieces I build for them I build "for them" and the experience of hand made is rare to them. When I have the space and money I will be cutting with CNC. The final product will still be assembled by hand and I will still call it manufacturing and my customers will still call it craftsmanship.

If Chippendale were trying to make a living manufacturing furniture today I believe that he would be using the most productive techniques available and at least partly that means CNC.

As to "is it really woodworking"? Well it is a process of working wood and it undoubtedly does happen, so yes - it is really woodworking.

PS - Keith - I am very keen to hear of your experiences with the ShopBot!!

[Dave Bartley]

I would like to thank all for their replies. The answers were about as diverse as the discussion we had the other night. If it comes to the point that you can throw in a log, and "out comes a chair " I will then question " where is the woodworking/craftsmanship?

The much mis-aligned/quoted "Norm" I think said it best. Many of us have hears it said. If I had the tools that guy had in his shop, I could build it as well myself. His answer was.... all the tools are only as good as the craftsman that is operating them.

[Dick Parr]

As I read this at my desk I can hear 40 CNC machines just outside my door. This same question was asked in the metalworking disciplines 40 years ago. I can tell you those 40 machies are definitely 'metalworking'.Greg

And when CNC came into the shop you lost the machinist who was replaced with a machine operator. Some times you got lucky and found one that could program also. But the true machinist is almost a thing of the past in any large production shop, unless of course you have a blue streak shop for emergency's.

My 2 cents

[Tom O'Donnell]

Over the years I have had great delight in producing projects with a hand held router. Projects that were considered could only be done with the CNC router some of these I have posted on my home page for all to see. What is required is a greater knowledge of the use of the template guides.

Tom

[Mark Singer]

For me it really depends on the application and the process. Years ago I designed buildings and drafted them completly by hand drafting techniques. The result was architecture. About 15 years ago I began using CAD systems to draw and design. I will almost always start by hand sketching. The result is still architecture and it has not diminished in quallity with the advent of CAD. I see buildings around that because of their poor design and insensitivity to the site and context ...do not qualify as architecture regardless of the process used. They are buildings...not great ones ...not even good ones. And so it is with woodworking...it is all woodworking ...on different levels...the rewards for using individual tools to create something will not be experienced if it is all CNC. If it is part of a finely crafted piece that is well designed for its intent then it becomes woodworking and crafstmanship.

Sticking a frozen dinner in the microwave is cooking...although its not like when grandma had all the pots on the stove and if someone asked her the recipe she couldn't tell them...it was just " a little salt....a little onion and a bit of chopped garlic" That kitchen smelled great when I came from school.... Just like the smell of wood in the shop...newly cut walnut...."a little planning...a little mortising...a bit of CNC..."

[Greg Mann]

And when CNC came into the shop you lost the machinist who was replaced with a machine operator. Some times you got lucky and found one that could program also. But the true machinist is almost a thing of the past in any large production shop, unless of course you have a blue streak shop for emergency's.

My 2 cents

That sometimes happens but it is not our experience. Every now and then I need to do something on our toolroom equipment. This is much like the manual stuff I started with in the 60s. While these machines can take advantage of modern carbide cutters, fifteen minutes of dodging hot chips and I am ready to exersize my 'craft' behind a Lexan window. It has been my experience that most of us old-time machinist appreciate CNC more than the young guys. I can still cut Acme threads on that toolroom lathe but it does not take long for it to become pretty dreary work. I imagine Mark probably got tired of sharpening his pencil back at the drafting table before he went to CAD.

Greg

Greg

[Mark Singer]

I imagine Mark probably got tired of sharpening his pencil back at the drafting table before he went to CAD.

Greg

Greg[/QUOTE]
Greg,
It may all be woodworking ....but our love of it should bring out the best from each of us. If you are making a repetative item...CNC can't be beat. As an architect I can still sharpen my pencil...and even draw ....unfortunatley skills that are rare of the architects today coming out of school. I enjoy those abilitities very much and use them daily.

There are those of us that eat to live and those that live to eat.....I sure enjoy a fine homecooked meal.....and a handcrafted piece of fine furniture...I can't see Krenov or Maloof ordering a CNC machine in the near future...

[Fred Chan]

The use of any sort of tool to transform the shape of a piece of wood should be considered woodworking. The real question is what exactly is the definition of woodworking. Is it working with wood to earn your living or is it the joy you get from working with wood?

[John Weber]

YES, the others have covered it well. Before planers, jointers, and routers there were hand planes of all sorts. Before chainsaws, there were axes. A CNC machine is just another tool for the woodworker to achieve the result he/she wishes. Some enjoy the process as well as the final product, and to these folks a CNC machine may leave something to be desired, but many people will also be excited by it's possibilities, and enjoy the programming as well and final fitting.

John

[Ralph Morris]

As long that anyone doesn't sign the works "Hand Made By" if u use those CNC machines.... I run those CNC machines in the machine shop every day. Once in a while I would run some woods for fun. I have been machining putters for golf out of all kinds of steels, I threw in wood and made a putter out of wood