I thought I knew how to turn bowls.

[Doug Thompson]

Can one (or both) of you elaborate on how that change in the gouge grind makes for a smoother finish cut? And do either of you have pictures that you can post? As a reference, how does it compare to the stock grind on a Thompson?

thanks, Jake

Sharper cutting angles is part of it 40 degrees vs 60 degrees. To get a 40 degree grind inside a bowl they use a large secondary bevel. Stu uses a U shape gouge and Johannes Michelsen a V shape with the same type grind, 40 - 45 from the nose to the wings. That is measured from the flute, how it's measured is a good guess which is close enough. A grind like this can't be done with a jig so they are tough to learn without someone teaching you in person.

I've talked to Stu about it but never took a class so I won't comment but I do use the grind from Johannes. His grind on a V shape bowl gouge creates a gouge that won't catch, in a cut the tool can be rolled back and forth without grabbing.

It's late...

[Gordon Seto]

Can one (or both) of you elaborate on how that change in the gouge grind makes for a smoother finish cut? And do either of you have pictures that you can post? As a reference, how does it compare to the stock grind on a Thompson?

thanks, Jake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m8-8MNhpvY
This tool grind video by Mike Mahoney is as close I can find in the web.
The Stuart Batty hand grind is not easy to master to get a consistent grind without any facet. Stuart Batty has demonstrated in our Club several times. From the recording, it took him 5 to 8 seconds to grind his bowl gouges. It was a perfect grind each time.
The Stuart Batty grind is slightly different than the Mike Mahoney video.
-The nose angle is 40 degree (included angle), it is slightly sharper.
-Longer sweep, 40 degree instead of 45 degree. The gouge swing higher on both sides. The reference lines on the flat platform are 5 degree higher on each side.
-not hollow grind; remove the heel of the grind so it would not bruise the wood for the interior of the bowl.
-top sweep can be slightly convex or straight, but never concave.

With his 40 degree nose angle, it won't reach deep as explained here:
http://www.woodturningdesign.com/askdale/14/14.shtml
Stuart can grind a 1/32" blunter primary angle on his 40 degree bowl gouge as needed for deep & narrow bowl.

On the bottom, he uses a very large & long bowl gouge with traditional grind. (used to be a Jerry Glaser bowl gouge)

His grind is not the complete magic bullet; it is mostly his skill. His demonstration & class makes one humble.

[Greg Haugen]

Gordon, that is the best explanation I've ever seen!!! Well Done!! You nailed it all!!

My first projects when I started turning was a Skew and an Alan Lacer DVD and a Bowl Gouge, actually a couple of them, and a Mahoney DVD. That's how I started and thought it was the only way. I don't even own a scraper bigger than 1/2", which what I use for my boxes. I've always thought it would be interesting to take a class with someone like Reed or Dale Larson to see and try their scraper techniques. We've been fortunate enough to have Stuart at our club. One thing I do like about Stuart's technique is that he'll be the first to say it's not all about the "bevel angle" as much as floating the bevel and getting the angle to do that on any bowl. There is no "magical" angle for everything, but if you understand the principals you'll be able to adapt to any form.

When it comes to gouge grinding, Stuart is definately THE MAN!!

[Reed Gray]

Okay, now to try to explain it. First, with Stu there to explain some of the details it is really fairly easy to do, and I have never hand sharpened tools in my 11 years of turning. We turned 6 bowls and I sharpened 20 or so times. Probably more than I had to, but enough to get the process down. The tool rest at the grinder is set at 40 degrees. There are 2 lines on the tool rest as well that come out at 40 degrees from either side of the wheel. You stand on the left side and use the left wheel if you are right handed. All sharpening is done from the one side, one stance and one grip. When first learning, You sharpen the flute on the left side first, the right flute, and then blend in the tip. After you get the hang of it, you make it all one motion. Lay the gouge up to the wheel at the 40 degree side angle, the side of the flute is parallel to the wheel, you don't roll the flutes all the way to 90 degrees to the tool rest. If this doesn't make sence, then use a felt pen to make a line up the inside of the flute from nose to top, and make that line parallel to the face of the wheel. If you have a V gouge, you just push it straight back and forth on the tool rest. If you have more of a U gouge, you pivot the gouge slightly (as in push handle on the tool rest, rocking but not rolling the flutes). With a V gouge there is little tip to blend in. With a U gouge, there is a little bit more tip to blend in.

The bottom of the bowl gouge Stu uses is a Glaser tool that is no longer made (I don't think Glaser tools are being made much any more). Not very thick (about 1/8 inch), but similar to Doug's U shaped gouge. The edge has a slight arc to it, kind of between a spindle roughing gouge which is square across the top, and a superflute gouge with a round nose. The heel of the gouge is ground to the 40 degree angle, and the cutting edge is ground free hand to about 70 degrees. This gets you through the transition area of the inside of the bowl, and across the bottom. The 40 degree angle will get you across shallow bowls and platters, but not deeper ones, especially bigger bowls where the rim of the bowl and/or the end of the tool rest gets in the way. You can do the same thing with a worn out old gouge that is too short to get into your jig. Same grind, just more blunt nose.

For inside the bowl, you have to relieve the heel of your gouge bevel. Do you have those concentric rings down the inside of your bowls? Nasty buggers, and some times the 80 grit gouge will get them out. Grind off half the heel of your gouge (bottom of the bevel) and this will eliminate them. Ever notice that you don't have those rings on the outside of the bowl? Having the cutting edge closer to the cutting edge makes it more stable, and also the sharp heel will push the gouge into the cut, rather than having it cut at its own pace. It also bruises the wood. On a concave surface, this is a problem. On a convex surface (outside of the bowl) the bottom of the bevel does not ride on the wood. This discovery (several years ago) allows me to skip the 80 grit gouge almost all the time. Seeing where I can start at 180 is a reality.

All tools work, depending on sharpness and how good your tecnique is. I have always had my gouge handles under my fore arm, and am now gripping them out on the end. I will have to experiment with this a lot to see how it works and get used to it. The best thing about a class or demo is the new things you see and get to try out and work into your way of doing things. There were no really new things, just adaptations of things I was already doing. Learning to 'feel' the wood is still the most difficult thing to do. Having my hands off the tool rest when turning bowls really helps that sensitivity a lot.

robo hippy

[Brian McInturff]

Doug,
Do you do a Mickelsen grind when you do hats? His grind and Stuarts grind sound very similar except Hannes rolls his back and forth while advancing it up the wheel. I still don't get as even an edge on the secondary bevel like Hannes does. Is there an easy trick to that? Reed forgive me for semi hijacking your thread by asking Doug a question. Maybe someone else or even you can answer it though since it sounds like the grinds are similar.

[Nick Stagg]

Brian,

Stuart doesn't use a "V" shaped gouge, his are all eliptical, with the exception of the bottom bowl gouge. As Reed said, the gouge is ground at 40 degrees and that includes the rake angle on the wings and the sides of the wings.

His grind has no similarities to the Michelson Grind, JoHannes was here in my shop in November for an all day demonstration so I had ample time to watch him sharpen his tool.

Allan and Stuart spent three days here and we practiced the 40 degree grind, and without exception, all the students were very capable of doing it freehand before they left.

Hope that helps answer your question.

Nick

[Doug Thompson]

It's the same idea that can be used on any shape bowl gouge V,U, oval, parabolic etc. and it doesn't matter what brand gouge. It's 40-45 degrees to the flute all around the grind so grab a old bowl gouge and give it a try.

Johannes taught me how to turn a hat so this grind is what I learned to use. With this grind I can rip shavings off a blank, your only limited by the hp of the lathe. IMO - a 5 hp lathe would be a ball to turn on. Is this the best grind on the market... for me it is BUT the best grind is the one that works for you.

Reed, I have a 5/8 diameter that has the same flute as the U shape gouge but the depth would make it a SRG. The wall thickness is .130 which is a bit to thin and the wings are a bit to high but it's 12 inches long. I'll send it to you if you want to play around with it, this might work for a finish cut. After the symposium there will be time to try out different ideas, a flute close to Stu's could be done... 5/8 and 3/4?

Talk about grinds, tonight I just finished grinding Michael Hosaluk's detail gouges. It's a 40 degree cutting bevel with a 28 degree secondary so only 5/16 of the cutting bevel is left... wicked grind.

It's late again...

[Gordon Seto]

I just finished grinding Michael Hosaluk's detail gouges. It's a 40 degree cutting bevel with a 28 degree secondary so only 5/16 of the cutting bevel is left... wicked grind.

Can you post a picture of the "wicked grind"?

I hope Reed doesn't mind the hijack. I am sure he is interested in some more new tools.

[Doug Thompson]

Late last night I took the time to write a long post but it's gone... darn. Tonight I'll try again... I have a tool here that might be used on finish cuts. Reed call me tonight at 440-241-6360

[Doug Thompson]

Late last night I took the time to write a long post but it's gone... darn. Tonight I'll try again... I have a tool here that might be used on finish cuts. Reed call me tonight at 440-241-6360

Found it;

It's the same idea that can be used on any shape bowl gouge V,U, oval, parabolic etc. and it doesn't matter what brand gouge. It's 40-45 degrees to the flute all around the grind so grab a old bowl gouge and give it a try.

Johannes taught me how to turn a hat so this grind is what I learned to use. With this grind I can rip shavings off a blank, your only limited by the hp of the lathe. IMO - a 5 hp lathe would be a ball to turn on. Is this the best grind on the market... for me it is BUT the best grind is the one that works for you.

Reed, I have a 5/8 diameter that has the same flute as the U shape gouge but the depth would make it a SRG. The wall thickness is .130 which is a bit to thin and the wings are a bit to high but it's 12 inches long. I'll send it to you if you want to play around with it, this might work for a finish cut. After the symposium there will be time to try out different ideas, a flute close to Stu's could be done... 5/8 and 3/4?

Talk about grinds, tonight I just finished grinding Michael Hosaluk's detail gouges. It's a 40 degree cutting bevel with a 28 degree secondary so only 5/16 of the cutting bevel is left... wicked grind.

[Perry Higgins]

Reed,
Who sponsored the workshop and how did you find out about it? sounds like one of those chances of a life time.
Perry

[David Walser]

Sharper cutting angles is part of it 40 degrees vs 60 degrees. To get a 40 degree grind inside a bowl they use a large secondary bevel. Stu uses a U shape gouge and Johannes Michelsen a V shape with the same type grind, 40 - 45 from the nose to the wings. That is measured from the flute, how it's measured is a good guess which is close enough. A grind like this can't be done with a jig so they are tough to learn without someone teaching you in person.
...

(Emphasis added.)

At a demo, I had a chance to ask Stu about this. The goal is to have the same cutting angle whether you're cutting with the nose or up on the wing. With some "swept back" bowl gouge grinds, the nose has a fairly blunt 65 - 70 degree bevel while the wings might have a bevel angle of less than 30 degrees. That change in bevel angle can make a huge difference in how you need to present the tool to get a clean cut when transitioning the cut from the nose to the wing. By contrast, Stu's grind has a 40 degree bevel at both the nose and the wing -- which he thinks is easier for both beginner and experienced pro alike.

I asked him about using a jig and he said none could reproduce his grind accurately. I asked about the Tormek system (which is what I had just started using) and he said that he really liked the Tormek jig and that it, alone, could produce a grind that was very close to what he does by hand. He said he still preferred to grind by hand (and thought I should learn to grind by hand), but he wouldn't try to discourage me from using the Tormek. (Of course, maybe he was just being diplomatic about my Tormek investment.)

[Reed Gray]

The workshop was sponsered by the Willamette Valley Woodturners in Salem Oregon. I am a member, even if I live in Eugene. Nick Stagg is the host, and has a number of workshops at his place. A really great host and an excellent setting. A lot of the famous turners and teachers will travel and demo/teach. Most of the smaller clubs won't get them in because of expences, but the larger clubs in bigger citys will host them. They aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for. Seeing a demonstration is great, a class is a lot better, you ask questions, practice in front of the teacher, and get tips on how to correct what you are doing wrong.
robo hippy

[Dan Forman]

Reed- I've read all the descriptions, but still need to see a picture of the business end of the gouge to understand what the Stu grind looks like. Could you please post a picture? Thanks.

Dan

[Reed Gray]

Err, my computer skills are lacking in that department. I think the Mike Mahoney video on You Tube shows it. Basically the same method.

robo hippy