What is the dislike of biscuit's all about?

[John Coloccia]

I suppose everyone that makes reproductions uses no power tools, transports their wood by horse and buggy, and works by oil lamp?

Bah. Biscuits are nice. They make large glue ups much easier. The point of a reproduction for most folks is to get the style they like, as opposed to the horrid, bulky, tacky nonsense that most places are passing off as furniture these days. If someone can get me great styling and class with modern construction techniques, then all the better.

Norm's done great things for amateur wood workers across the world. What have his critics contributed, other than hot air? Thought so.

Use biscuits, or don't use them, but they should lay off Norm.

[David Keller NC]

Thanks for the info Dave and for staying out of the kitty scratching. Norm is certainly not the pinnacle of wood working craft, but come on, biscuit joinery or not, the guy pioneered so much and has a show that has probably motivated and inspired more people into woodworking than anyone else, certainly more influence than the snobby critics. That certainly benefits all of us with a broader consumer market to support the design, building and sale of so many new tools, both power and hand. As for joinery and brads, anyone who really gets into woodworking will certainly discover other methods include more authentic ones - I mean they aren't just going to watch Norm are they?

It's so easy to critique without having anything to offer. So if you don't like it, go make your own damn show and see who will pay for it let alone watch it.

I'm afraid what I was trying to communicate got a little lost in Mike's paraphrasing of what I wrote. I very much like and respect Norm Abram. Anyone that has had such a committment to Public Television and teaching, and has impoverished himslef relative to what he could've done by product endorsements, books, etc... is to be commended, not least for what you noted. I myself was instruduced to the WW hobby by Norm and Roy. Without them, I'd have just stayed with being the toy maker of the family, a mantle that was passed down from my Grandfater.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm afraid what I was trying to communicate got a little lost in Mike's paraphrasing of what I wrote. I very much like and respect Norm Abram. Anyone that has had such a committment to Public Television and teaching, and has impoverished himslef relative to what he could've done by product endorsements, books, etc... is to be commended, not least for what you noted. I myself was instruduced to the WW hobby by Norm and Roy. Without them, I'd have just stayed with being the toy maker of the family, a mantle that was passed down from my Grandfater.

Just to be clear, I'm sure I never said a word about Norm and whether David liked or didn't like him or anything else in that area.

My comments were regarding the elitist attitude some people take to making furniture based on antiques - that there's only one way to do it that's proper.

Mike

[J.R. Rutter]

biscuits and pocket screws = git er done

laughable in a reproduction though

[David Keller NC]

"My comments were regarding the elitist attitude some people take to making furniture based on antiques - that there's only one way to do it that's proper."

That's not an accurate paraphrase either, at least of what I wrote. There are an inifite number of methods and materials used to make furniture, and the final results are often quite nice (I posted something to this effect earlier in the thread). Would you consider Mack Headley an "elitist"?

[Bill White]

Just my opinion.......
We've beat this mule to death.
Bill

[John M Bailey]

What did I miss? I've been in the shop doing woodwork.

[Billy Chambless]

What did I miss? I've been in the shop doing woodwork.

Then you didn't miss anything.

[Sean Nagle]

What did I miss? I've been in the shop doing woodwork.

Had you been using biscuits, you would have been done in time to join the scrum

[David Keller NC]

Just my opinion.......
We've beat this mule to death.
Bill

Indeed. That's enough for me. But I suspect the OP got his question answered - at least the controversy part!

[Larry Lukens]

I'm pretty sure of two things: mortise and tenon joints are stronger than biscuits; and we aren't supposed to use hide glue on biscuit joints, because hide glue is reserved for reproduction purists.

Well, I'm OK with that. I'm content to stick my loose tenons into mortises with TiteBond.

I, too, recall the FWW article on joint strength. There are lots of applications where biscuits are good enough.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Thanks to one and all for the replies. Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I had my computer die both at home and here at work. How is that for timing?!!?

I had my machine and work cook itself to death. The video card, HD and memory all died. At home it was limited to the HD's installed in the machine but still how frustrating is that?!!?

I wanted to say thanks to everyone for helping me understand. I had not actually seen the video that someone linked to here early on. When I watched the stress failures on the joints I was amazed. Such differences in strength. Wow!

For me personally I am not a purist. I am not trying to copy older furniture in such a way that no one could ever tell the difference. (Tho I can see why people would want too as it is very cool and a serious art!) I am just interested in making good solid furniture for my family and friends. Stuff that is durable, good looking if possible, and just simple not... particle board. I have a bone deep loathing for that stuff after seeing my parents buy it for the bulk of my lifetime.

So I have been looking at plans and tools and having some fun trying to figure it out to some extent before getting started. In the case of these biscuit joints I was mostly curious to know if they were worth using.

It seems the general response is "good for lining things up but doesn't add any real differences in strength." Which makes sense. I had planned to use mortise and tenon work for almost everything. The situation I was thinking about was when making side or top panels for things and glueing up jointed boards. I am not sure if I will get one or not at this point to try using them. But I have a ton more information than I used too and I really appreciate that!

Thanks a Million!
Joshua

[Bob Wingard]

I personally do not subscribe to the "alignment only - no added strength" ideas, but I speak only from experience and mechanical aptitude.

If a joint is glued .. and that bond is stronger than the materials .. that is fine.

If you add a m&t to that joint .. most everyone agrees that it gains strength ..

If you add a spline to that joint .. it provides for the alignment element of a biscuit or a M&T joint, but if the grain runs parallel to the joint, no added strength is imparted.

If the spline's grain runs perpendicular to the mating surfaces, it becomes a kind of M&T joint and everyone is so happy that tremendous strength is gained.

Is a biscuit not a "piece" of a spline whose grain runs at an angle to the surfaces being joined ?? Kind of a hybrid spline/M&T ?? Now, it for sure won't be as strong as the "real" M&T, but it also will be something stronger than a weak spline whose grain is running parallel to the joint's surfaces.

I don't see how the lowly biscuit can be blamed for weakening a joint .. ANY joint unless severely misapplied (i.e. a #5 biscuit in slots cut for a #20)

That's just my point of view .. make it yours !!


<<<__ Bøb__>>>

[Chris Friesen]

If a joint is glued .. and that bond is stronger than the materials .. that is fine.

If you add a m&t to that joint .. most everyone agrees that it gains strength.

Glue bonds are stronger than wood only for long-grain to long-grain joints. In these circumstances, adding biscuits/splines/dominos generally only buy alignment, not strength. (There are exceptions where they are actually giving you cross-grain reinforcement, but these are rare.)

For end-grain to long-grain, a biscuit will be stronger than a butt joint, and is basically equivalent to a small stopped spline. A loose tenon is basically a big fat spline, and if fitted really well should be essentially equivalent to a same-sized m&t joint.