Kickbacks.

[Larry Edgerton]

Actually there is no way in hell a Pro can do things the same way a hobbiest does. Take for example the tablesaw safety device pictures that are posted in this thread. I will have that cut set up and made long before that can be set, and to tell you the truth that contraption looks a lot more dangerous to me that just cutting the board. You have just introduced several things more to get in the way and go wrong, but that aside, I would have been out of business a long time ago if that is what I had to go through every time I made a new cut.

I don't post as often any more because even though I have proven solutions to problems that I have worked out in 34 years of professional woodworking, they don't meet with what the hobbiests on here have read a book or two. There are a couple of people on this forum that I would probably knock on their tush if they said to my face what they feel they can say on a forum, hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. There are many who I value their opinion such as Karl, Harry, David, Wolf, George and so on but by and large there is a lot of misinformation perpetuated by people that want to be heard.

Get this point: Being a pro is not the same as being a hobbiest!

We have to be faster, and the knowledge that we have amassed allows us to work at a different level. We know what a machine will do in almost any situation, we can look at a peice of wood and tell what it will behave like when machined, and like it or not we have to run some acceptable risks to stay in business. We are not building multiples of a thousand for the most part, and so can not spend an inappropriate amount of time on each piece. There is a deadline imposed by simple economics when you are doing one offs that is simply you can only charge what the market will bear, that being our reality. Food on the table and house payment made is the carrot that drives us just like many of you that work in other fields, but the reality of our business is that we need to produce X to pay Y.

Karl "is" in a dangerous position though. He is bored it seems and that can lead to unattentiveness, and that can spell disaster. Boredom is in my opinion the most dangerous thing you can have in the shop.

Karl, I did a few years of just building cabinets, and I agree it is the most boring thing one can do. I found my mind wandering to my dirt bike at times when I should have been paying attention to what I was doing, over and over and over again. Hate to break it to you but as you get older it doesn't get better, it just gets more boring. I switched back to high end construction and one offs, and although I make much less money, I am much happier with what I do for a living. I am recreating all the old exterior trim now for a 130 year old house out of Azek, and although I hate the smell of the stuff I am learning new things and meeting a challange. He contacted a few companys that said that what I am doing could not be done, so I take great pleasure in proving them wrong, and it makes my life interesting. Maybe you need to look in a new direction? Money is not everything, and life goes by in a flash, so try to leave a trail of pleasant memorys behind you. In the end I think that is more important.

Gotta get to the shop.......

[Chris Yarish]

Karl "is" in a dangerous position though. He is bored it seems and that can lead to unattentiveness, and that can spell disaster. Boredom is in my opinion the most dangerous thing you can have in the shop.

....what he said.

[george wilson]

I think the word RESPECT should be substituted for FEAR in many of these posts. I have seen someone who actually FEARED the table saw.Her fear was such that it could really result in her getting cut. She stood on the right hand side of the fence while trying to push wood along the left hand side of it. She couldn't even see if the wood was against the fence from where she stood. With one hand,she shielded her face,and leaned as far away from the saw as she could,though wearing a shield.



She had a Master's degree in furniture conservation. She came into my shop to borrow my saw. This stupidity on her part really irked me,and I reported to her boss that she need training before she cut her hand off. She should have had such training years before!

THAT is fear. Respect is what these other guys are talking about. I have been using a saw for 54 years,and have had 2 minor accidents. Fortunately,I still have all 10.

I do use a push stick on anything that gets my fingers too close to the blade. Probably wasting a few seconds reaching for it.

Cutting 1" strips without use of a push stick is just way too close for comfort.

The situation I like the least is on those few occasions when for some reason,the blade overheats and starts FLAPPING. That is especially when I don't want my hands near the blade.

I had a very low powered saw when I was just getting out of college,and had no money. It's blade bogged down,then the capacitor kicked in,causing the blade to jump back to full RPM. I got my right hand pulled backwards across the blade. This cut through 2 of my fingernails and into my fingers. I recovered fully,but it was over a year before I could comfortably dial a telephone again.

Being a guitar player,and maker,I was lucky that I didn't ruin my hand. Best to use a push stick. That aside,I agree with most of what Karl listed.

[John Thompson]

I will congratulate Karl on making 10 out of 11 excellent suggestions on TS safety. #8 about do not use a push-stick is the only one I find ludicrous. There is no reason to put your hands that close the the blade when a push-stick.. clamp can eliminate doing so. Not all push-sticks are equal as you can make them in various forms and configurations with ply in a matter of minutes wtih a BS.

Karl also mentioned something I don't believe many caught. He uses a Power Feed on his shaper. Congrats on that. A good number of the cabinet shops in my area and there are many use one on the TS. Many have gone to sliders or SS for liability issues. A Power Feed is much safer than a blade brake in the sense a blade break can only eliminate injury from actual contact with the blade. It does nothing to stop kick-back and the injury that can result from that. A power feed can elinate injury from kick-back.

But.. to classify those that use safety devices as a waste of time is ridiculous.. classify them as Afraid of their machine is also. And I don't care who you are or what you do for a living... nobody is going to look at a piece of wood and determine with 100% efficiency if it is reaction wood. Nobody is going to be able to totally sense kick-back before the fact and react quickly enough to stop it once it does. Nobody.. not pros .. not seasoned WW with experience.. not beginners. you can master TS techniques but.. you can never totally master the machine combined with wood that has a mind of it's own.

I use safety devices and push sticks as I only starting using them with the exception of push sticks about ten years ago. The first 30 years I was alert and somewhat lucky. I have been gut kicked 5 times and had hundreds of off-shoots launch off the rear of saw. Keeping the rear lane clear avoided injury from those with the worst being a piece of wood driven through two layers of sheet rock wall.

I am not Afraid of my 5 HP TS.. I was not afraid of a Wadkins 12 HP TS when I did a year stint in a cabinet shop in the late 70's until I became totally bored with in a month. But I use safety devices and push sticks. Push sticks are used to well.. push. The stock can be held down with a simple block of wood clamped over the stock and a couple of quick-clamps on the fence.

As far as the devices shown in this thread... Karl mentioned measuring out to such a point.. measuring back to a point and subtracting 1/8". Why not simply measure from one end.. make a mark.. lay on sled and cut. That took a shorter time than the solution of the Pro. And what is in the way?

[harry strasil]

I do use a pushstick on narrow stuff, but this should be put on every machine at the factory.



my last post in this thread.

[Bob Carreiro]

In my original post to this thread I mentioned an industrial accident I had nearly cutting my foot off on a TS. Peter and Myk wanted to hear how that happened. So here it is.

THE STAGE:
At 8 AM on October 19, 1971, I was working as a ships joiner in a small shipyard in Rhode Island. We were cutting 4x8 sheets of asbestos with Formica laminated on one side which was used to cover bulkheads and overheads in the living quarters of this new ("Love Boat") kinda ship recently placed in the water from the assembly shop. The "break-down machinery" was set up for the cabinet makers on an open-air deck under an extended over hang topside. The saw was a simple portable frame of 4 legs hinged to folding rails. The top, with motor mounted to its underside, simply dropped onto pins on the leg tops. The sides were open. Carbide blades in those days were wide - this one, 9/32" and a 14" dia. Most was below table and too big to extend much above the finger plate. When asbestos is cut (this was before it was hazardous to your health), it's dust expands expodentially and falls like huge snow flakes around the TS. Falling on a wet (from morning dew), unpainted steel deck, makes for a very slushy and slippery surface. As my partner was pushing the sheet through the saw, I was on the back end, slowly walking backwards holding up the sheet as it was fed.

THE EVENT:
Suddenly, my left foot slipped out from under me and came up under the TS, just "touching" the bottom of the saw blade. Since I was on the back side, the bottom of the blade was rotating up and it IMMEDIATELY threw my foot up through the finger plate causing the plate to ricochet off the overhead and overboard (I think) as a wide, thin line of "red" spayed on the white overhang above us. Here I was, laying on my back; my left foot sticking up through the finger plate throat, as the blade effortlessly spun through the middle of my workboot. I tried to "push" the TS away with my right foot as I simotaneously tried to "pull" my left leg out, but my foot was wedged and the pain was..., well, horrific. My partner dove for the extention chord.

THE AFTERMATH:
I was lucky. I was in Providence Hospital for two weeks (old medicine) and the rest is just history. I still have my foot, all-be-it a little "narrower" than my right foot since a 1/4"+ "groove" was taken out of its mid-section. And I can't bend my toes today and have to look down when standing on ladders to ensure my foot is far enough onto the rung, since I have little feeling left on it's underside, but otherwise, it seems to work OK. Two years ago I finally had to have some corrective surgery and the outcome of that introduced blood clots into my system, which in turn, caused a couple of TIA's ("mini strokes") that nearly took my life.

Back to topic: All of us have a responsibility to ourselves and our families to be safe, to take the necessary precautions and maintain the abilities God gave us for a happy, fruitful life. Some of us go about that differently. I have experienced kickbacks, quite a few, through collective years: raising a panel on a shaper "threw" the board up and away as my left hand went flying into the cutter. It stopped short and the cutter simply removed the fingerprints on the tips of tree fingers - no blood drawn. I was observant, recognized the danger zones and was prepared to compensate for whatever the machine would do. Running narrow pieces thru the TS with dull blades is "asking" for kickbacks (but who hasn't used dull blades, either thru laziness or being cheap or broke?) and the TS's do what physics dictate - it kicks the stock right back at ya! But I don't stand in the danger zone: I know where the danger zones are and take the necessary preventive actions. I'm saying all this becuse we have the ability to master the opertions we subject our machines too. I don't fear the equipment. I orchestrate every peice of the operation and tell the machine what I want it to do and how to do it. I do not need safety guards and shrouds, riving knives, and all manner of featherboards and clamping apparatus meant for the week-end warrior (most is consumer driven products, not for the professional) becasue I plan for what I'm doing, how I'm going to do it and know what the machine may do under the demands I subject it to. I do not fear the machine. It better fear me, or it's out the door of this guy's shop!

Be safe. Plan your work. Work the plan. Know your equipment and covet the knowledge of those who went on before you.


happy woodworking,
Bob Carreiro
Poulsbo, WA

[Karl Brogger]

Now thats bizzaar(sp) Bob. I wanted to ask how someone gets a foot in a saw, now I know.


Here's what I do not like about push sticks. You guys seem to think I'm some wild animal, maddly throwing wood without mercy at a table saw. Nobody, I don't give a rats behind what kind of push stick it is, can tell me that its going to grip the material as well or as sentively as my hand. And how exactly does that push stick get into your hand? Do you blindly look for it while your piece is sitting there just itching to cause trouble, or worse do you look away mid cut? Both of which are hell worthy trespasses in my book. And yes I realize your going to be setting it right there next to the fence, but the point is you still have to take attention away from cutting and that is a tradgic mistake. Every says "that one time....", is full of it. Plain and simple. "What about reactive grain?" First off, I'm assuming your talking about the stuff that has so much tension on it that it tries to explode in the saw when you start cutting and releasing tension. What about it? Sure if you sit there and ponder what is going to happen, something is going to go to hell while your playing Hamlet with the stock in you hand. Did you look at the piece before cutting it? I do, always, every time. There is no "that one time", why, because I don't like bleeding, and I'm paying 100% attention to what is going on 100% of the time. Now if I could get that to work framing and smashing my hand with a milled face hammer, my world would be a much happier place.

Does flipping pieces end for end seem dangerous to you guys? Because I will never, push stick or not, ram a 24" piece of anything really skinny through a saw. That concept has seemed to have evaded many.

A shaper is way more dangerous than a tablesaw, any day of the week. Same horsepower, on a third of lever. You ain't stoppin that with flesh. The power feed is actually more of something to save time and money. Steady feed rates yield a better product. If I thought it would make me more money with out one, I wouldn't be using it. But in this case it is the inverse. Feeders on a table saw work decently, so long as that saw has a dedicated setup for a feeder, working around it the rest of the time is a pain, and a seperate saw for it is money well spent. I've been looking for a used Powermatic 74 for just this application, I can't afford a actual rip saw, so that'll have to do for two person cutting/stacking of stick & face frame material. It'd be handy for cutting dado's in for drawer bottoms as well. I haven't gotten good results with a shaper doing this, I think the diameter is too small and it takes too much material too quickly.
Coping sleds are sweet too, but only if they're pnuematic. Actuating a hand clamp is too dang slow. I'd rather cut and hold them by hand with a T-square than have to do it with a manual clamp.



How high do you set your blades at? I set them so the gullet is at about the height of the material, or maybe just a bit below for solid stock. Right or wrong I don't know, but it seems to cut the best while keeping as little of the blade sticking up as possible.


Bored, you damn right I'm bored. Cabinetry isn't exactly rocket science. I spend in an 8 hour day probably a good honest 15minutes thinking about how to do something. Total though the whole day. Other than that its just cutting out ugly material, and making the best use of the excuse for wood that we get now days. 90% of it doesn't even require paying attention, like making doors. ugh. A bulk of mindless time spent is feeding material into the shaper, sander, the planer, and sanding the panels and assembled product. The only time paying attention is even required is making sure to orientated the stick material correctly, and cutting it on the table saw. There's zero challenge left in any of it, only things that take more time than others. Although I had never made a single beaded face frame and jack-mitred it together until last week. I was bored with nothing to do and whipped one up just to see how its done. End of that mystery. When I first started, I really loved the work, I took pride in everything I do, I probably make everything better than I used to, but I don't have that warm fuzzy feeling from completing something difficult, because none of it is anymore.

[Karl Brogger]

As far as the devices shown in this thread... Karl mentioned measuring out to such a point.. measuring back to a point and subtracting 1/8". Why not simply measure from one end.. make a mark.. lay on sled and cut. That took a shorter time than the solution of the Pro. And what is in the way?

Except you assume I actually take the tape out to make that measurement. If I buy a unit of material, its all the same, no reason to even bother. If the whole unit is 97", (Regardless of what size, they're all the same), and you need a 60" piece, why not just set the fence at 36-7/8" and make the cut? That's what I do, and I don't have to load a full or half sheet on to some home made sled, (or sliding saw either which I'm not a fan of), or have to deal with the storage/handling issues of having it there. I will never own a sliding tablesaw, just because they're time consuming, expensive, eat up a massive amount of real estate, and are only marginally better than just a plain ol' cabinet saw. And yes, I have used some very nice, well built slide saws, also some crappy ones. But I'd spend $25k this afternoon on a vertical panel saw if I had a place to put it. Short of a beam saw, that is the fastest and easiest way to break down sheet stock. I'd even go toe to toe with a CNC router on that one. I'll load, cut, and unload my material before the CNC even has the program loaded. Properly set up a CNC should only be machining parts anyway, not cutting them out, although the vast majority of shops are setup that way.

[John Thompson]

Karl.. I did catch your comment about cutting to mid length on a narrow rip.. then reversing the cut. Great idea but.. what if you have a shorter piece than your 24" limit. I just cut 3 pieces of ebony for A & C buttons 1/2" x 1/2" from 12" long ebony block. I could have done the same cut with a 3" long piece for that matter and never got my hand closer than 6" from the blade.

I took some pictures of both a cross-cut with 1 1/4" stock and I trimmed off 2 mm on the end. My hand never came closer than 6" from the blade. I also took a picture of the three 1/2" x 1/2" x 12 just to demonstrate I ain't talking from a book. I removed the gaurd and splitter even though the splitter in this case could have stayed on for both these cuts.

Yes.. my push stick on the rips was beside me as that was part of prep. Did I have to move my rear hand off the back of stock to pick up the stick. No... It really wouldn't matter in my case as my stock is pinned left with a spring-board.. right by fence and over-head with a simple piece of scrap clamped on the fence.

The push sticks used was simply a 1" wide flat on the first cut.. a 3/8" wide on the next as the stock became narrower. You simply push.. the fence.. spring-board left and scrap hold down does the dirty work.

In both cases my hands never came closer than 6" and the cuts were smooth and precise. And yep.. I use a sharp blade. I have 4 40 T cross-cuts.. 2 24 T rips and 2 20 T rips. One usually stays at my sharpener 4 miles away. I won't use dull blades.. period.

Have you thought of changing professions? I spent a year in a cabinet shop and was bored after a month. I don't like production work as it's the same old thing as you mentioned day after day. About the only thing that changes are dimentions and style.

Good luck...

Back to the shop for me... I'm retired now but it ain't quitting time until a football game breaks out latter!

[John Thompson]

Except you assume I actually take the tape out to make that measurement. If I buy a unit of material, its all the same, no reason to even bother. If the whole unit is 97", (Regardless of what size, they're all the same), and you need a 60" piece, why not just set the fence at 36-7/8" and make the cut? That's what I do, and I don't have to load a full or half sheet on to some home made sled, (or sliding saw either which I'm not a fan of), or have to deal with the storage/handling issues of having it there. I will never own a sliding tablesaw, just because they're time consuming, expensive, eat up a massive amount of real estate, and are only marginally better than just a plain ol' cabinet saw. And yes, I have used some very nice, well built slide saws, also some crappy ones. But I'd spend $25k this afternoon on a vertical panel saw if I had a place to put it. Short of a beam saw, that is the fastest and easiest way to break down sheet stock. I'd even go toe to toe with a CNC router on that one. I'll load, cut, and unload my material before the CNC even has the program loaded. Properly set up a CNC should only be machining parts anyway, not cutting them out, although the vast majority of shops are setup that way.

Karl.... the OP you answered that to had a 72" long.. 22" wide panel of solid wood. You refer to ply as you use it daily... the majority of us here simply don't have all the same lenghts or widths to work with. I build one off furniture and have for 38 years. I buy rough and size it from there. So.. the way you mentioned has little relevance to the way the majority of us work.

I don't have a slider.. don't need one. I don't have a SS and don't need one. If I was in the cabinet business and I'm not by choice.. I would also opt for the panel saw. But I don't even need that as my work is one-off large carcass as mentioned where the only ply I might use would be for a simply drawer bottom or chest back. So.. you really address the majority which really don't have dead-lines.. don't use ply the most part.. etc.

Apples to orange in a sense...

Now... back to the shop...

[Karl Brogger]

Karl.. I did catch your comment about cutting to mid length on a narrow rip.. then reversing the cut. Great idea but.. what if you have a shorter piece than your 24" limit.

Cut part way, kill the saw with my knee, use what I'm cutting to grind the blade to a short stop, pull piece out, flip, restart saw, finish cut, loosen fence with left hand, push out of way with right hand by pushing on material against fence.

My hand never got even remotely close to the blade, and I didn't have to set anything special up for a very limited number of cuts, or worse. One cut. Although when cutting bevel cuts I have had the drop come shooting back at me, but never with much speed.

[george wilson]

Was the blade tilting towards the wood when it kicked back? When I was just starting to learn to use a table saw in 1954,I was cutting a narrow strip of wood with the blade tilted towards the wood. (It was a Unisaw,and they always tilted towards the fence,a feature I always found bothersome.) The strip shot out of the saw and stuck into the side of an old wooden boat about 15 feet behind the saw. Last time I tried to cut bevels that way!!!

[Denny Rice]

I also run my table saw with NO guard of any kind. I find 99% of them that come with the purchase of the saw are more dangerous than running without one. Thats just my personal preference I feel I have more control because I can see everything. I always set my blade height with the stock on the saw I set the blade no more than 1/8"-1/4" above the top of the board. The other thing I have never liked and I know a lot of people here do is the push shoe, they scare me I feel like when your finishing your cut through the blade the hand is too close to the blade, thats why I have always felt more comfortable with a old-fashioned push stick. When I started working with wood I don't think there was a thing called a push shoe, once again its just something I became comfortable using over the years. JMHO

[John Thompson]

Cut part way, kill the saw with my knee, use what I'm cutting to grind the blade to a short stop, pull piece out, flip, restart saw, finish cut, loosen fence with left hand, push out of way with right hand by pushing on material against fence.

My hand never got even remotely close to the blade, and I didn't have to set anything special up for a very limited number of cuts, or worse. One cut. Although when cutting bevel cuts I have had the drop come shooting back at me, but never with much speed.

I do understand your technique at this point, Karl. To the point I apologize for calling your #8 suggestion ludicrous and withdraw the word ludicrous. But.. you stated you did this with 1" stock and under. I can't determine what the big difference is in 1" stock and 1 1/16" stock.. 1 1/2".. etc. So it boils back down to I will have to agree to dis-agree on the use of a push-stick as I simply use it to push with no attempt to hold the stock down with it. I use other devices to do that task which avoids me from ever putting my hand closer than 6" from the blade.

I also will have to dis-agree about the use of splitters.. crown guards.. plastic shields.. feather-boards (in my case I use a home-made spring-board) and I personally use a short fence opposed to a long in 90% of my rip cuts which is about 90% of my work on a table-saw. I could explain in detail why each one of them is helpful but... it would really be a waste of my and your time as you appear to be dead set in your methods and feel they are best.

I will also have to disagree with being able to idenify reaction wood before the fact. You can find some planks that are obvious from the surface but.. you cannot see intenal tension from the surface in some. I hire out to surface prep air dried stock on occassion for locals which requires ripping in 10' -12' lenghts. You cannot go through 5000 linear feet of stock and cull out all the reaction wood as you just can't see through a piece of wood and detect internal tension. Here's where a splitter and short fence comes in handy but that is mute as you are probably not interested.

So.. it boils down to not everyone is going to agree on methods they feel are the best. Everyone is responsible for their own safety and take action to determine what is best for them which is our individual right. If they want to hang from a tight wire above their saw and shove stock through with their foot.. that is there personal decision and OK with me.

I won't preach to you what I feel is a safer method as I shake in fear of being called a "Safety Nazi" hiding behind a key-board as mentioned by another poster. I am in Fear of getting beat up if they found out I live on Ridgemont Dr. in Lawrenceville, Ga. I wouldn't want that to get out and disclose my location for sure. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

Have a good day Karl and I hope you stumble on a line of work that makes you feel a bit more satisfied as life is short indeed.

Regards...

[Karl Brogger]

OK, you didn't see the mass of gnarly grain, or its thick and not showing on the surface. So the piece is in the saw, its expanding and binding. Now what? Easy, follow #5, #9, #10, and keep a good grip on it and muscle through it. If its binding to the point its killing the saw, then its probably best to hit the off switch with your knee and pull out the material. Chances are you are though the worst of it and you can come in from the other direction and get it cut. The reality is that when you relieve that much stress the piece is going to be unusable, or at least the cost of dealing with a part that looks like a pretzel is higher than the value of the wood, and its either going to have to be cut into something really narrow and easy to manipulate like face frame material, or its destined for the dumpster.

The big difference between 1", and 1-1/16", or 1-1/2" would be the extra clearance of a 1/16" or 1/2" etc. gives me. Like I said, its a time managment thing. Cutting up 5000 lin/ft = 625 cuts from 8' material. That adds up to a fair amount of time if I were to grab a push stick for every single cut under 4". Do what you will with the push sticks, I don't feel they are safer, if you just can't grip it well enough in my opinion.

As far as changing careers, I've thought about it. The only occupation that has any real draw to me is lottery winner. A nomadic life of sticking my toes into the sand with a coctail in my hand on the south Pacific, while wondering if I put out enough chain for the incoming tide is the life for me. The reality is, I'd pass out under a palm tree and someone would steal my boat. or, I'd take the dingy to some island and discover a native people unknown to the rest of the world, unknown because they eat anyone from the rest of the world....