Ditto Rick Fisher, Mini Max Slider The only way go.
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Ditto Rick Fisher, Mini Max Slider The only way go.
Contributor
[QUOTE=David DeCristoforo;1260236]
C) "Old iron" (Oliver, etc.) may be much superior to newer machines but will not address the OP's concern about glue quality cuts any better.
It might- they have bigger arbors,bearings and more cast iron for less vibration and overall better machining (not to say the uni or the pm 66 are bad saws just a different class of saw)
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Wait! Did you steal my saw?. All seriousness aside, I have had the Delta contractor's saw with Unifence, Uniguard and Forrest blade and I've only considered replacing it with a cabinet saw twice. Once about 4 years ago when a friend bought a new Jet and about a month ago when I started spending more time in the shop.Originally Posted by Mike Null
On both occasions, I realized that there was no real world reason for swapping out saws. The only basis for even considering a new saw was that cabinet saws seem to be what woodworkers get when they grow up.
Then I realized that I was grown up and the Delta does everything I want a saw to do. End of story.
In Memoriam
I love my PM66 but the UHMW faces on the Unifence left a bit to be desirred in terms of straightness. I used it for years with acceptable results but finally replaced the fence faces with phenolic baltic birch ply this summer. There's a noticable improvement in straightness which shows up in even fainter saw marks than what I was getting before. But I still think terms like glue-lin-rip are an oxymoron where table saws are concerned. I dont think it's possible to avoid cleanup with either a jointer or neander jointer plane.
Use the fence Luke
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I'm glad somebody was willing to go there. I bought my #7 jointer plane for $40. Quick tune up, and it works. What is the longest piece of stock that must be jointed for an electric guitar? 22"? A bit less for a tele design, a bit more for some others, but not great lengths to be sure. And generally only two or maybe three board glue ups to get the width? This is not a lot of labor per instrument and is a miniscule amount of the total labor involved, so why does it matter how it is done and why the insistence on glue line ripping?
So if this is a custom operation, the TS point is mute, you could do it with a good skill saw, most of your labor is elsewhere. If this is a production shop, get a good jointer and move forward with whatever TS you choose. If this operation is a factory, for heavens sake buy a straight line rip saw and make those bodies by the thousands. With all that shaping, carving, surfacing, scraping and sanding to do, along with fitting the neck and wiring it, finishing it, man, it seems like gluing up blanks should be the least of your problems.
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I don't have a jointer, but I can get ripped edges that glue together very, very well right off cuts with a WW II.
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What David said. I understand that you'll probably be edge jointing 8/4 stock to make a body, but unless you're making a guitar with only right angled edges, I don't see how an accurate tablesaw is incredibly important for you. Nice to have, sure, but you'll get more use out of your 8/4 stock by using your bandsaw (assuming you have one) to rip and a jointer plane to prepare for glue-up (and glueups done on a edge freshly jointed with a handplane are going to be a far cleaner glueup than anything off a tablesaw or power jointer, no matter how accurate).
A General 650, Sawstop, or Delta Unisaw would do you just fine. All things being equal, you can make any of them as accurate as they need to be.
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I beg to differ. I'm not big on hand tools, i wish i was, and with a little practice it is a skill that can be learned. The OP was merely looking for the best table saw he could find, not have his skills questioned.A I would venture to suggest that anyone lacking the ability to joint the edge of a board with a hand plane is probably not going to have the necessary skill to build a guitar.
My hobby when i have time which isn't much these days is building violins. There is a lot of hand work involved,guitars not so much comparatively. However there are a lot of skills involved in guitar making that has little to do with the skill of using a hand tool that are more important to the sound of the guitar. There is a lot to learn, and if the OP is making them, he has learned far greater skills then handling a hand plane.
More on topic though, I have used both good and bad table saws and with a good one there is very little hand work needed, making the job easier and allowing a maker to spend time where it is most needed. I don't see a problem with that. If i had the money i'd put it on the delta uni saw or the PM 2000 and spend the time tuning it up to get a cut that would save me as much time in the long run as possible.
There are plenty of specialized tools for instrument makers that can be made or bought, it's like a different world in the shop, but a table saw would still be a very valuable piece of that puzzle.
It would be nice to see some of your work, i'd love to build instruments as a full time occupation, but it's nice to dream and look at what others are doing in the mean time.
Member
Another vote here for the Incra TS-LS rip fence system. If you fit it with what they call their Wonder Fence joinery system you can also joint on a router table as it allows the precise offsetting of the halves of the split fence relative to the cutter.
As above a short sliding table saw from somebody like Hammer costs more than a cabinet saw, but is not too expensive, and would deliver some additional capabilities. You could fit an Incra fence and router table on the rip side so you would have the above precision positioning and jointing capability too.
You could even go for a small Hammer combination machine which would add a planer thicknesser and spindle moulder in a very compact footprint...
Lots of videos on the Hammer US website...
ian
[OP]
Member
To any who question my woodworking abilities, they're questionableDefinitely in their infant stages for sure. But I can create a process just fine. That's all I need to build a guitar. Here is what I'm building at the moment:
The current table saw is a cheap $99 Lowes saw. Not an accurate saw at all. The boards were jointed on my 8x48 Old Iron Crescent jointer. It did a nice job but now the outfeed bed is having parrallel issues. I guess I'll be fixing it. I was hoping that if I got a quality saw, I'd be able to eliminate the jointer. I have had a reputable cabinet shop tell me that I don't need it if I have a good table saw. Also, I made the table on my DeWalt RAS and it's almost good enough to joint with. I didn't get the fence side dead straight. It's out (bowed in the center) by around 10 thousandths. I cut it with a straight edge and a bearing bit in a router. I think the straight edge bowed a little in the center when trimming the fence edge. But it's almost a good enough cut a joint on the RAS with a Mr. Sawdust (Forrest WWI Triple Chip 8") blade. It actually rips these 20" boards very easily and with a sanded quality cut.
But all that said, no I'm not a good wood worker. As you can see I can build a guitar body. I honestly wouldn't know how to joint a board on a hand plane. I can shave the bottom off of a door
But............. that's why I'm here. I'm 29 and an Electrical Engineer just learning the wood side of guitar building (ordered from CNC shops before). My dad was/is a finish carpenter (union/commercial) but I learned very little/not much when it comes to fine wood working. Hey I didn't go to work with him everyday. Nothing is learned by osmosis!
And............ woodworker or not, I've learned the right tools make things easier.
Last edited by Nick Sorenson; 11-16-2009 at 12:48 PM.
Member
Nick - I'd like to suggest getting a book on the basics of wood dimensioning and joinery. It may also help with your TS selection. There are many acceptable methods for doing things, and certain steps that can be skipped if you know when it's acceptable to skip them, but I wouldn't assume that it's always acceptable to skip the face jointing and go straight to edge jointing with the TS...the folks at the cabinet shop are likely to know when to and when not to. It's easy to envision getting uneven edges even from a very accurate table saw with a proper blade if the face of the board is twisted, warped, or bowed. A jointer is the most efficient method of straightening the face and making an adjacent edge 90° to it, but certainly isn't the only way....it is however an important consideration somewhere in the process.
Last edited by scott spencer; 11-16-2009 at 12:18 PM.
Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....
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My recommendation, too.
Member
A lot of cabinet shops don't need a jointer because they are not making glue-up panels. They are cutting plywood, ripping edging, etc.
Their perspective is different. Get the jointer straightened out. You will be lost without it.
-Brian
Contributor
Forgetting all the other arguments, a table saw is a poor choice for this application for two reasons. First, to get a glue ready cut the edge against the fence must have a glue ready cut. If not, the cut will drift as soon as the front of the board leaves the fence if there happens to be a high spot there.
Secondly, you will find that much of the available highend wood is not nescessarily rectangular. Often there is usable wood that has fantastic figure and grain but just barely fits the outline of your guitar. In this case it's hopeless to use a fence as the edge is angled, curved or whatever. I suppose you can make sleds and fixtures but it's not a great solution.
I've never used a slider so maybe that's a solution but a stock table saw and fence will limit you or cause a lot of extra work. I think my jet 12" combo jointer/planer is a really great fit for this kind of work (which is why it's in my shop).
I often still follow the jointer with a #7 handplane. I do a much better job on difficult or thin woods by hand than my jointer does. It's too hard to pass thin woods on the jointer without flexing them a bit (most are warped slightly anyhow which makes it harder) and the really brittle woods just chip. I've had no luck with lacewood on the jointer, for example. The handplane slices it like butter.
This is just my opinion but it's a perspective that no one else hand mentioned, especially the part about some of the wood being a shape other than rectangular. This is very normal in the flat top and archtop world.
Moderator
Nick-
You have good skills. Nice wood!
I'm surprised nobody's suggested this approach:
Start with a budget. Then get the best saw you can afford. There are great contractor saws, there are great hybrids, there are great 'budget' cabinets, and there are great Rolls Royce's.
I do urge you to STRETCH your wallet as much as is reasonable. If you'd LIKE to spend $1000 but CAN spend $2000, then go for a higher grade saw. I promise you won't regret the nicer features, and increased power.
- shawn
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