Something I don't understand about the Sawstop design

[Dave Cav]

Actually, I think more often than not the blade is salvageable. Mine's hit my WW II twice(dumb miter gauge's fault) and it's been repaired by Forrest.

We have had one trip on our ICS at school so far. The student swore he never touched the blade. I was able to salvage the blade (sent it out for sharpening) and sent the brake cartridge to SS so they could read the chip. They said the stored data was consistent with a finger strike, and sent me a free new cartridge. The only thing I can figure is the student's finger touched the side of the saw plate based on my observation of his operation of the saw.

[Daniel Shnitka]

Has happened, with fingers or wet wood. Watching the video shows no material being pulled or jammed into the table saw plate insert zero clearance or otherwise.

[kenneth kayser]

Saw stop has done a very good job of reducing false stops to a minimum.

Dropping the blade increases safety. Falling into a jammed blade could but a nasty gash into a forearm. Dropping the blade also reduces stresses on other parts of the saw by helping to dissipate kinetic energy.

[John A. Callaway]

I would be more concerned about stopping the blade versus dropping it. If it drops while still spinning... I think depending on where your finger is over the blade, it could still cut you more, or try to drag your finger...by the bone maybe...down into the saw. I dont know if what I am saying makes sense ...but I guess it does... stopping the blade stops the cut. even if the cut is in your finger...

[Brian D Anderson]

I guess this is a good place to tell you all about a little piece of information I learned a while ago:

I don't know exactly when, but a few years ago a large number of table saw manufactures got together and contracted out a small R&D firm in Silicon Valley to come up with a design for a blade braking system, similar to the Saw Stop, but not infringing on their patents. How do I know this? My best friend worked at that R&D firm.

So they came up with a design that not only stopped the blade faster than the Saw Stop, it also didn't destroy the blade either. He said their recharge "kit" was going to be fairly cheap, like a $20 CO2 type of cartridge.

My friend told me a few things about the project that were of interest. He said there was plenty of prior art to get around the Saw Stop patent. Just because the inventor happened to be a patent attorney doesn't mean he had the technology completely covered. He also thought the tool companies were really just covering themselves in the event that they were required to provide the technology on their saws. He wasn't sure if their design would ever make it to market.

His R&D company gave the base design to the tool companies with the idea that they could modify/design their own versions if they so chose to.

That's the last I really heard of it as my friend left the company last summer.

I keep waiting for one of the manufacturers to unveil their braking system.

-Brian

BTW, This was all second hand knowledge through my friend, so the details may not be 100% accurate.

[johnny means]

as I understand it, the blade dropping action of the sawstop was originally designed in order to protect the arbor and trunnion mechanism from the force of the blade stopping. That's why the arbor assembly is supported by a gas shock until the brake fires. Not sure where I heard this, but I'm pretty sure it was an interview with Steve Gass.

[Paul Ryan]

I guess this is a good place to tell you all about a little piece of information I learned a while ago:

I don't know exactly when, but a few years ago a large number of table saw manufactures got together and contracted out a small R&D firm in Silicon Valley to come up with a design for a blade braking system, similar to the Saw Stop, but not infringing on their patents. How do I know this? My best friend worked at that R&D firm.

So they came up with a design that not only stopped the blade faster than the Saw Stop, it also didn't destroy the blade either. He said their recharge "kit" was going to be fairly cheap, like a $20 CO2 type of cartridge.

My friend told me a few things about the project that were of interest. He said there was plenty of prior art to get around the Saw Stop patent. Just because the inventor happened to be a patent attorney doesn't mean he had the technology completely covered. He also thought the tool companies were really just covering themselves in the event that they were required to provide the technology on their saws. He wasn't sure if their design would ever make it to market.

His R&D company gave the base design to the tool companies with the idea that they could modify/design their own versions if they so chose to.

That's the last I really heard of it as my friend left the company last summer.

I keep waiting for one of the manufacturers to unveil their braking system.

-Brian

BTW, This was all second hand knowledge through my friend, so the details may not be 100% accurate.

If this is true, it just proves what a sad state the tool industry is in. As I have stated in the past "they dont care about your saftey". It is all about producing tools as cheap as possible and selling them for as much as possible. Again if this is true Delta is the real dirty one. They could have incorperated their new saftey device, but "saftey doesn't sell" which is what has been said in the past. Sawstop has proven them wrong with the best selling saws on the market.

[Bob Wingard]

Say one fails....say the blade block fails to fire.....yup...if the blade drops...you have a backup system.....and visa versa.

.

If the cartridge fail to fire, the blade's not dropping either. It's the sudden stop that causes the blade to drop, not anything electronic. The drop of the blade is NOT a secondary, redundant action.

[Randal Stevenson]

If this is true, it just proves what a sad state the tool industry is in. As I have stated in the past "they dont care about your saftey". It is all about producing tools as cheap as possible and selling them for as much as possible. Again if this is true Delta is the real dirty one. They could have incorperated their new saftey device, but "saftey doesn't sell" which is what has been said in the past. Sawstop has proven them wrong with the best selling saws on the market.

There are also legal implications, for coming up with this AFTER Sawstop, and then incorporating it. Some of the lawsuits (why didn't you invent/incorporate it earlier) would still happen.

Litigation, the threat of litigation, responsibility (personal and company) and the not my fault (not me), symptoms all affect each other in a vicious cycle.

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Well, I think safety sells...

We got rid of every table saw we had (15-20?) and replaced them all with Sawstop saws... it's the only reasonable choice for a business, other than buying a panel saw...

Why? It takes the operator right out of the equation.

From a liabilty standpoint - there is a "duty to use" argument which is somewhat compelling, even if you don't agree with the cost....

Cheers -

Rob

[Cody Colston]

There is not a doubt in my mind that eventually, the TS mfg's will be forced to incorporate a Sawstop-type device on their saws. The mentality in this country is that someone else has to be responsible for our personal safety, no matter if we are careless, incompetent or simply stupid. It's always someone else's fault and we have the court judgements to prove it!

That post about the saw mfg's already having developed an alternative to the Sawstop technology strikes me as probably true. They can also see where all this is leading.

What I'm expecting to see before then, however, is what happens the first time a Sawstop fails and someone cuts off a digit. Of course, it will be the fault of Sawstop because the technology will have failed. No matter that nothing is foolproof, especially in a dusty shop being operated by a banker, doctor, exec, amateur woodworker wanting to relieve some stress on the weekend but relieves himself of a finger, instead.

If a plaintiff can get awarded $1.5 million because the mfg did not include the Sawstop device on their saw, what will they get when they spend top dollar on a TS, thinking they are buying Sawstop protection but then lose a finger anyway?

The device WILL fail somewhere, sometime. That's not a knock on Sawstop but simply the nature of the beast. The more saws Sawstop sells, the greater the odds that there will be a failure. It's all about numbers.

[larry cronkite]

The timing of this post couldn't be better. This morning coming down the stairs to my shop I twisted my ankle and ended up on my butt (Great start for April 1st).
A while later while nursing my sore ankle I started to cut up some curly maple for pen blanks when suddenly WHAM!!! Evidently while shifting my weight to ease my ankle I inadvertenly touched the saw blade and triggered the safety mechanism. Of course the brake was ruined (which SawStop says they will replace when I send in the triggered one) and damaged the blade that I have been told can be resharpened as good as new.
The only injury that I sustained was a slight groove (that didn't even bleed) on the end of my left forefinger and a nick on my fingernail that can be repaired with a nail file.
I want to thank SawStop for making this technology available, (and my wife who after seeing the SS video in November 2009 said, "That's your Christmas present").

[Dan Friedrichs]

The device WILL fail somewhere, sometime. That's not a knock on Sawstop but simply the nature of the beast. The more saws Sawstop sells, the greater the odds that there will be a failure. It's all about numbers.

Perhaps. But even if it only works 99.999% of the time, that's good enough for me It's still a marked improvement over the status quo.

[Greg Portland]

I would be more concerned about stopping the blade versus dropping it. If it drops while still spinning... I think depending on where your finger is over the blade, it could still cut you more, or try to drag your finger...by the bone maybe...down into the saw. I dont know if what I am saying makes sense ...but I guess it does... stopping the blade stops the cut. even if the cut is in your finger...

Go watch the super-slo motion video from the show Timewarp (available on Sawstop's website and Youtube IIRC). Your concerns are unfounded if you watch the video.

[Josiah Bartlett]

Larry, I'm glad you are ok (at least your finger, I hope your ankle gets better too). That really emphasizes how alertness and concentration really plays into shop safety.