shop layout and DC duct question

[Matt Neil]

I'm getting ready to remodel a barn and throw in a shop in one half and I'd like some advice on the current footprint I'm working on. The shop area will be 24' x 30'. I used Grizzly's program to toss in a bunch of tools that I think I would be interested in getting over the years.

Couple of notes: The DC is cut off the page on the bottom left. It's outside the shop area but still in the barn so I can easily see when the bag fills. The square box half way up the left wall is a RAS. It's one of the few tools I do have. Top left corner is a scrollsaw. On the far right is a workbench along the wall. I plan to have a router table instead of a shaper (#6). Exterior walls are the top and left. Double doors at bottom open up to the other half of the barn which is used for lumber storage, mower, car.

Now the DC question. With a powerful enough DC can I run pipe along the 24' wall then curve and continue it down the 30' wall? Before we pour the slab I'll put in a 6" PVC pipe to the TS in the middle. I'm putting a wood floor above the slab, so if the location doesn't work in the future I can always cut it off, but I want the clean look. I've read lots of opinions lately regarding under slab DC and that's not my question. Rather, would you run it under the slab to the left wall (13') and merge with that pipe heading to all the other tools? It's 17' to run it diagonal to the DC, 8' to the top wall.

A few of us in my town get together for wood club. Basically some of us found a guy with a shop and we meet at his place to work on projects. It's time for me to put together a meeting place. I'm interested in furniture pieces. Little tables, cabinets and next I might try tackling a bedroom set.

[John Jendro]

I think it's more efficient to run the main diagonally across the shop, then branch off to your machines. That leaves you with a much smaller main run.

[Jim O'Dell]

Ditto what John said. The other thing I'd do, since the DC will be in the bigger building, make a bump out where it will be, like a closet, so that the DC is actually in the shop. Especially if you will be heating or cooling the shop, it will be better to keep that air in the shop. I'm not a fan of running piping in the floor unless there is a room below it. If you do this, make sure you add at least one clean out spot...one at each end would be better. Jim.

[glenn bradley]

It seems you have the DC far away from the machines(?). I would do the opposite. Either relocate the DC so it is closer to the more needy machines or spin your tool layout 180*, something like that. If the cyclone spot is fixed and there are reasons for locating the machines far away, a diagonal run to the spot between the jointer and the planer would pass right by the tablesaw area(?). JMHO and worth every penny you paid for it ;-)

My cyclone is directly to the right of the operator position of my tablesaw, RT is attached to the saw and the bandsaw is only a few feet of duct away. I currently run a separate DC for the jointer and planer but they too are within 20 duct feet of the cyclone as attachment there was the original plan.

[Paul Wunder]

Matt,

The definitive answer to your question can be figured out since you have already "placed" your equipment in a shop plan. A simple way to do that is to get this month's copy of Wood Magazine with its "primer" article on dust collection. Using their charts on machine cfm's and the losses associated with each type and length of duct in your system, you can easily see if the fan curve for the 3HP Grizzly will support your needs. The Grizz is a good machine with an accurate fan curve and believable cfm.

If you get ambitious, you can also try Bill Pentz's Excel spreadsheet on calculating static pressure.

[Dave MacArthur]

A combo of Glenn's and Paul's answers, based on the CFM needs of each macine and static pressure of their locations, I would either move the machines to optimize the static pressure, or place the DC over kitty corner across the shop to be closer to the machines. I'd run the pipe across the shop diagonal to the TS.

Remember, big chips take higher speeds in the pipe to keep entrained in the airflow, and each machine depending on it's design takes a different CFM. I haven't seen the recent wood magazine article that folks have mentioned (must be good, seen it mentioned several times), but I do like Bill Pentz' excel sheet. And he's got some nice pre-done charts too, just takes a few hours reading to sort out what is what.

Your real question is, for the DC you contemplate, can it make a 54' run to those far machines and still have the sp and CFM needed. Almost always the answer I see actually built is "Well, if I run diagonal and thus shorter runs, it sure won't be WORSE and should give better SP losses", so that's what is done.

Good luck!

[Kent A Bathurst]

......With a powerful enough DC can I run pipe along the 24' wall then curve and continue it down the 30' wall? .....

Of course you can. It's only a question of money, not physics, and I think it'll be a whole buncha money for the HP and mains diameter you are gonna need. You're talking pro-shop stuff here.

If you are pretty much fixed on this layout, then its probably time to get a player involved - like Oneida (one of many), et. al. Not sure globally, but the coupla calc sheets I've glanced at gag out at the CFM and SP losses you will be talking about here. Look at the parameters from any of the SP calc info places, and you'll see that by the time you get through the mains, turns, drops, flex connect, you are approaching 100' equivalent for SP calc purposes to get to your planer - you have to budget for those losses and still show up at the dance with the CFM to get the girl to go home with you.

Orrrrrrrr.....get the DC a lot closer to the "big dogs" (TS, jointer, planer, drum sander) as the other guys have mentioned. A 15" planer puts out a waste stream on the order of an Old Testament nightmare, and the other three aren't amateurs at it, either. As Dave noted just prior - you've gotta keep those chips suspended and hustling to get them to the end of the system.

I'm hoping you can pull it off - looks great - love the thinking - would love to have (a) that amount of space, and (b) a 10 - 15hp hoover to run it with. Jealous, actually. Best of luck.

Invite us over, hey?

[Mike Cruz]

Matt, I have the same size shop as you...24x30. I've never been one for having stuff along the walls that uses up linear space, like the big 3 (TS, Planer, and Jointer). So, this is how I set up my shop. Not all my stuff is Grizzly, so the listing on the left of the pic isn't accurate, but I made it as close as I could. I do have a 20" planer, Uni with 52" rail, 8" Jointer, and dual bag DC.

Using the front doors as a reference, doors being bottom middle:

*Top right corner 3'x12' wood storage.
*Just below that, 6'x12 finishing room.
*Just below that, 13'x12' work area (2'x12' bench running the lenth of the finishing room, 4'x4' bench, lathe, 60 gallon air compressor, 12" disc sander, 4"x8" drum sander, mobile clamp rack, and down draft table)
*In the middle of the "left half" of the room:
*Table saw just inside the doors set up to run wood from left to right.
*Planer to the left and above TS set up to run wood from top left corner to door.
*Jointer to the right and above TS set up to run wood from middle of back wall to door.
*Dust collector between planer and jointer. (THIS ALLOWS VERY SHORT RUNS TO THE 3 MACHINES THAT REQUIRE THE MOST CFM)
*Miter saw on middle of left wall with 12 foot table/bench to the left of the saw (below saw on layout), and 4 feet to the right (above the saw on layout).
*Drill press to the just above the 4' miter saw extension table.

With the DC right in the thick of things, like I said, you have very short runs to the 3 "biggies" in your shop, and you can fan out from there to the rest of the shop with no more than 30 feet or so to the extremes of your shop...including drops.

There is obviously more in the shop, but this is the quickest I could do. Hope it helps and maybe gives you some more ideas.

[Matt Neil]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. It's great to hear/see what you've done in your own shops. I had planned on placing the DC in the top left corner, but outside the left wall. There's an attached lean-to on the barn so it would still be indoors. But then I worried that I'd never notice when the bags got full. Since the shop will be climate controlled I plan to run the return air flow back to the shop area so I don't lose heat, but I wanted to save a little room and keep out some noise. Recently I saw someone post that this setup is still noisy, just not as bad as the DC in the room.

The ceiling height is 9' plus I have two beams splitting the 30' width that use up another foot. Running diagonally meets a problem. In order to keep the duct in a straight line, it would have to be set below the 8' height of the beam. I have been contemplating removing the floor for the hay loft and raising it up a foot or two to give me more headroom. I'm trying to figure out the tradeoff between the extra work/expense and will I regret it later if I don't.

I'll get a hold of that Wood magazine and check it out, as well as play around with the layout some more.

The underground duct will be PVC and I'm pretty certain of the location of the TS (plus you have some play room even with underground), but I want to use something like Nordfab for the rest since that layout will surely change, especially since I'll be getting the tools one at a time. Can PVC duct be connected to a metal duct? Do they make those fittings somewhere?

[Matt Neil]

Attached is a revised layout based on feedback. The DC would have one run to the TS and then Jointer and Planer. A second run would go along the left wall.

I'm hoping George chimes in at some point. I know he's a big proponent of under slab duct, and I'd like to get opinions of running under slab from the Planer/Jointer to the TS and then diagonal to the DC. The TS to DC run would be about 20'.

Mike, how did you attach your thumbnail of your Grizzly layout?

[Dave MacArthur]

Open your pdf. Drag mouse over what you want to copy, then right click and "save image". Open start/accessories/Paint. Click Edit, paste, and paste the image you just copied into MS Paint. Click File/Save-As, and save it as a .jpg. Make sure it's less than about 107k, the SMC limit.

Now you have an image.
In an SMC thread, click REPLY. If your image is HOSTED on a website somewhere (http then at the top of the reply-text area you can click the picture icon "insert image". I don't use that.

Down below the text-reply area is "additional options", in there click the "manage attachments" button. Click the "browse" button that shows up and browse to the jpg file you just created on your computer, then click "upload image" button. Close that window after it uploads. It's now "attached" to your reply post. Submit the reply.

[Mike Cruz]

I probably did it the hard way, but I printed out a copy. Then scanned it into my computer, resized it, then uploaded the pic as I would any pic. That late at night, it was the only thing I could think of...

[Jim Becker]

Perimeter dust designs are generally not the best idea as they are less efficient due to the longer length. In many shops, a diagonal main run with drop branches (or something down the centerline with drops) will reduce the duct distance and improve performance.

[Nick Lazz]

Matt,

I virtually have the same size shop (24x32) and set up as you are planning. I ran my duct work along the ceiling. I never really considered under as it is a slab floor, but I also have high (13'6") ceilings so it isn't a problem.
I ran my duct work along the 24' side and T'd off (with long sweeps, which consisted of a Y and an 90) to get to my machines.

My system works well and although diagonal would work, I didnt even consider this because of the lighting. I also wanted the ducting accessible for any changes, which we all have from time to time.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Nick