Salvaged D8

[Joe A Faulkner]

Hi Marv, Though you can't see it in the photos, the etching is legible and says D-8. The attached "Before" picture of the handle shows the top of the handle is open to the blade.

[Marv Werner]

Joe,

Very strange..... All D8,s had the "let-in", cover-top handle. In fact, the D8 was the first to have that handle design, starting in 1874 I think. When you removed the handle are there any extra holes in the blade indicating that the handle might not be original?

Thanks for the picture

[Joe A Faulkner]

No, there were not any extra holes in the blade, but, as you can see if you look closely, the nuts don't line up all that well. Also, there were remains of deteriorated, non-metal, non-rubber washers under the nuts. The consistency of what remained was something like cardboard. Perhaps the handle is not the original.

[Marv Werner]

Joe,

My favorite source for Disston saw information is at this link http://disstonianinstitute.com/ This is the D8 page.... http://disstonianinstitute.com/d8page.html

If you want to snoop around on that site maybe you can find something I didn't. My guess is as you said, the handle might not be original. You might keep your eye open for another old D8 with a crappy blade but a good handle. Or maybe George has one laying around that he will donate.

[george wilson]

Sorry,I am such a tool pig I hardly have room for my good tools.

I do not keep non functional tools around,because I actually make things with my tools,Marv.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Sorry,I am such a tool pig I hardly have room for my good tools.

I do not keep non functional tools around,because I actually make things with my tools,Marv.

George, really. Marv takes ill-treated saws and makes them useable. As long as I've known him, his business is not making furniture. Only complaint I'd have is his apparent obsession with western saws.

Pam

[george wilson]

What about your obsession ,Pam ??

[Marv Werner]

Hi Pam,

You are right, for years, I've focused on western style saws, but lately I've been giving pull saws some thought. I'm about to finish making what I'm calling an East-West, Push-Pull backsaw. From time to time I see a post that asked the difference between a pull saw and a push saw. My East-West saw is kind of an experiment. The handle can be mounted on either end of the plate. I have cut a few tenons with it and it works quite well, but not as aggressive on the pull stroke without applying some downward pressure on the toe end. It doesn't have the same feel as a Japanese saw, but does provide some aspects of one. The saw is not intended to be sold. It's more to satisfy my own curiosity and to build a unique saw and perhaps inspire others to make one for themselves. I don't expect the saw to become anything of great interest among woodwoorkers, mainly a conversation piece. The tooth profile is that of an ordinary western style backsaw. I'll post some pictures of it in a few days.

[george wilson]

I have had a flush cutting dowel saw for many years. It is a German one,with the handle that swings around so you can use it in either direction,depending upon where the dowel is. It has teeth that cut in either direction,but the result is that the saw does not cut well in either direction. It is perfectly sharp,too. The increased negative rake on the teeth just do not want to aggressively cut into the wood like normal saw teeth do.

[David Weaver]

From my experience turning a zona pull saw blade around after find it was loose, trying to make a push gentleman's saw, I think trying to make a saw that pushes and pulls is a lost cause. I never realized how much different the rake was on a pull saw until then. If you take a plate out of a pull saw and turn it around and try to cut with it, you can't even start the cut - the negative rake is so severe that it just digs in like a brake.

You just don't get pressure on a pull saw on the back stroke, which is one of the reasons I abandoned a japanese-saws-only kick I was only about 3 years ago - the ability to "lean into" a western rip saw is something you can't really get with a japanese saw. I have katabas down to about 5 teeth per inch, and while they work, they are grabby and not nearly as nice to use as a nice disston 12. Getting the correct orientation with them is also problematic. To pull more aggressively, you would always have the tendency to pull the japanese saws back "into the straws" on a board, but the saw does not rip quickly that way. You would almost have to stand under the cut.

I don't have a tablesaw, and really wasn't using one then, so ripping is a big issue. Not so much on short pieces where you can just put the piece in the vise and use a ryoba. Ripping aggressively on inch thick stock, I can almost get an inch a stroke on cherry or other medium hardwoods with a decent western saw. I just can't get close to that with a ryoba or a kataba.

Anyway, I think the geometry is just too different to make a useful saw that pushes and pulls.

[george wilson]

With my back trouble,I could not pull any tool and exert downwards force without soon messing my back up.

[Marv Werner]

Well, David, I guess I have just wasted a lot of time making the saw. It's odd though, when I did a test cut with it, it cut quite well on the pull stroke. It only made good sense that if it would cut on the push stroke, it should also cut nearly as well on the pull stroke. All it needed was a little more downward pressure at the toe end to cause it to be as aggressive as when pushing it. Teeth on a saw don't really care which way they cut the grain whether pushing or pulling, at least on the saw I made. The good thing about actually making a saw to perform in a certain way, instead of just conjecture and theorizing, is, you have an opportunity to see firsthand what it can actually do. The saw is filed rip profile for cutting tenons. It's actually easier to pull the saw than it is to push it. The cut is started with the wood tilted when sawing so the saw is cutting on a horizontal plane. The cut is made to depth on one side, then the work piece is turned around and sawed the same on the other side. The last part of the cut is done with the wood straight up so the saw is still cutting on the horizontal or at a comfortable angle. I'm not here to convince anyone with a closed mind to new ideas. I'm just relating what I actually did, not just theorizing. Pulling the saw takes less effort than pushing it. I would guess that it would be easier to pull than push if one has a bad back. But, what do I know?

[David Weaver]

Easy, marv. I was relating my *actual experience* with a saw that cut well on a pull cut, and was way too aggressive to even use on a push.

Cutting well and cutting quickly enough to be useful might be two different things.

I eventually refiled the teeth on that little saw to cut on the push (because that's what I wanted in the first place), and it does that fine, but it cuts too slow on the pull now with zero rake to be useful to work with. It would need to have a weight on the end of it to make it pull well.

Your time in the shop, you can do whatever you want. I personally won't screw with it again, it's too easy to have two separate saws that work better and faster at their respective tasks.

[george wilson]

Actually,I find it much less stressful on my back to push any tool. If I were accustomed to years of using pull tools,like a Japanese carpenter,my muscles might be used to the different action. By pushing,I can use my upper body weight to push a saw or plane.

The German 2 way dowel saw was made in the 1950's,and seems to be made of perfectly good steel. The negative angles of the cutting edges do not want to cut the wood as well in either direction. It is possible that 2 less aggressive cuts(forward and back) may equal 1 aggressive cut(just 1 direction.)

The only way to prove the 2 way saw would be to take timed cuts with it,and compare the time it takes it to cut the same wood with a 1 way saw.

I don't quite understand why it is necessary to have to re- situate the wood,when it has always been standard procedure to just cut it as it sits with a normal saw. Would having to move the wood always be convenient?

I have to get ready for eye surgery,so I haven't time to discuss this further right now. Besides,Marv doesn't want to hear opposing views about his saw.

[George Clark]

perhaps it's an ultra rare D7.5