Salvaged D8

[David Weaver]

I have to get ready for eye surgery,.

Yikes! Good luck with that! If something goes wrong, tell them you want to save the eye so you can put it on a string and scare kids at halloween.

[harry strasil]

I use frame saws a lot and I have tried pulling them, they didn't cut very well and jumped up and down a lot like riding a bucking bronco or a bull at a rodeo. Yes, I did that in my youth, till I had a horse go down with me and injure my back at age 13, then I got in the rodeo clown part of rodeoing, after awhile, that made my back worse from diving into a barrel and managing to get out of the way of an irrate bull. LOL I guess I am a saw pusher too, altho I do have an 8ppi disston sharpened pug tooth that saws well in either direction, but i really haven't gotten used to applying pressure on the pull stroke yet. Some day I want to make me a pug tooth dowel saw with no set. I have several short scraps of blades around from making the webs for my bow and frame saws.

[john brenton]

Sounds like an interesting gimmick...and I don't mean that in an insulting way. There have been various attempts to cross the two, the most recent one I've seen being a sort of japanese toothed back saw with a western style handle designed for pushing in the Garrett Wade catalog (I don't know why I get that or where I signed up for it. I find nothing appealing in it).

I guess it would depend on the particular rake of the saw that you're using. I believe the "turbo cut" webs for frame saws are meant to be pushed...so there has to be something there...although I am inclined to believe that if I tried to push a blade with teeth on it like my ryoba that it just wouldn't work without a whole lot of light handedness and technique. There'd probably be a lot of broken teeth after I was through with it.

On the subject, my ryoba saw ROCKS. I had one about 10 years ago that I used for bamboo, but picked this one up along with the Footprint chisels from an ad on CL. I was going to sell it but I love that thing. It's Silky brand and is taper ground. It's almost too easy to cut perfectly (whatever that means) straight and clean...I feel like I'm cheating. The rip side really does leave a glossy surface as if I had planed it. I would like a large one, but from what David says it doesn't sound like a worthwhile investment.

[David Weaver]

You can always try pushing it and see what happens. On the ryobas, the teeth are so aggressive that when you turn them around, they stick in the wood like a bunch of ice picks.

The turbocuts look like a crosscut filing (like the other side of the ryoba) with no rake. They would probably be kind of doggish on the pull in a rip cut (there has to be someone here who could tell us), but a frame saw would be the place to do it. On the zona saw, I tried pulling down once I filed them zero rip, but your urge is to put your other hand on the back side of the spine to put downpressure on it, which doesn't lead to good things. A frame saw is already designed so that it's weighed on the ends, so maybe it would be better.

But if it cuts so well on the push, why bother pulling it? Everyone does things differently, I guess. There was a discussion about using pull saws last year where people were wondering if you should stand back far from the work or lean forward and have your head right over it. I don't know what the "rules" are for using pull saws, but it's easier for me, especially with the ones with no spines, to have my head straight over the work in a pull cut. Some folks really objected to that or thought it was odd.

[john brenton]

It does sound odd...I'm imaging the arm movement and I actually just stood up and grabbed the ruler off the desk and pretended it was a pull saw. Maybe it's not so odd if you're talking about sawing for joinery, but if you're talking about cutting to dimension that sounds hard. From the way I just did it, it seems that it's all elbow and forearm that way. The way I cut I put a lot more of my body into the movement...I'm not "putting my a** into it", but a little more fluid motion throughout the body through the midsection and into the legs.

There's a video of a guy using a japanese saw to cut a 2 x 4 and if I would have watched that video years ago I would have never bought a japanese saw. The guy is just pumping up a storm and hardly making any progress. It took him about 100 strokes to get through the board and he's just pumping away. I barely use any pressure, and just listen to the saw cut. It sounds gay, but it actually is getting pretty zen like. I just softly cut and listen to every tooth slice through the fibers. The cuts are square and finish quality.

I stand back away from the action while sawing at a comfortable angle (comfortable physically and a smooth cutting angle), but do saw with my head over the work at the end where I even out the cut from having made more progress at the top than at the bottom, kind of the same stance and technique you use for a coping saw...that was really hard to describe for some reason. I do like the feedback you get from a pull saw. You can really hone in on the angle that best cuts through the fibers smoothly.

I would never even think of using a pull saw configuration on the push. To me it makes no sense as pulling a pull saw is just as effective as pushing a push saw...but people want to try new things.

[David Weaver]

>>I would like a large one, but from what David says it doesn't sound like a worthwhile investment. <<

Taper ground japanese saws are really sweet, they go through the cut like butter. Maybe slow butter, but still butter. The ones I've used are higher-end saws than the production floppy plate induction hardened Z and Gyochuko saws, though. They are really really nice for finish work and they do not blow anything out on the aggressive side of the cut.

I don't know what the advantage would be to a big one, though, unless you were going to use it to cut large tenons. A 10 point 16 inch tenon saw (for me) cuts tenons much faster, though, and aside from having a lot fatter of a kerf and a little less of that (insert homer simpson sound when he eats donuts) feeling than a taper ground ryoba, I think for practical purposes I would just rather save the japanese saws for the really delicate cuts. I do like a pull saw for dovetails, but I started them that way. Waiting for a noncritical project to think about maybe going to using a western dovetail saw.

Even the Z8 crosscut saw will leave the surface you're talking about - waxy endgrain, but it won't feel as nice as a taper ground saw does.

[john brenton]

Absolutely. Any saw can do that if it's filed and set right...but I must admit that most of mine aren't, and I've never put in the time to learn how to make them that way.

I don't mean get a larger joinery saw, but a larger saw for ripping and x-cutting to dimension. Japanese saws are great when you don't have the set up for working with western tools. For example, I don't have any bench vises as I haven't gotten around to putting a new top on my bench, so it's been convenient for me to clamp a piece to the bench and have gravity and the force of the pull keep the work in place.

I just recently built a sawing bench, which has made ripping with a western saw a little easier. I don't know. I tend to agree with you and save the japanese for delicate work, but the saw I have really excels at tenons of all sizes. I cut some 3.5" X 6" tenons and the ryoba made it a breeze with no back to impede the depth.

If you ever decide to venture out into japanese saws again, the Silky Hibiki is a great choice.

Even the Z8 crosscut saw will leave the surface you're talking about - waxy endgrain, but it won't feel as nice as a taper ground saw does.

[David Weaver]

You can make yourself a temporary saw bench with some glue, your ryoba and a 2x12. I made one I really should be ashamed of out of a 2x12 and a 2x4, but I really don't have any interest in making a "pretty" one until find a perceived limitation with the one I have. I'm not remotely close to being as fanatical about shop fixtures and benches as a lot of folks are, though - I like to spend my time and money on tools, and make the other stuff (including furniture) only when I have to.

Hopefully it didn't come across as I was implying that a polished edge is no big deal, I only meant the japanese machine cut saw teeth do it better than any western saw I've ever seen. The Z8 crosscut is a decent option for anyone doing small joinery on a budget, it leaves a great finish. In fact, all of the gyochuko and Z saws, do a very nice job of polish for their tooth size. The saws like you mention do it at least as well or better, and they feel nicer when you're sawing.

[john brenton]

No, I understood exactly what you were saying.

I did build a little saw bench recently and I really like it. It's the one popularized by Christopher Shwarz and I made a little space for my saws underneath instead of making a till. As soon as my wife get's back (if she can get back...some documents got lost in the mail!!!) with the camera I'll take a pic of the saw bench and the tool cabinet. I finished the cabinet the same night that I posted the pics...with the wife and kids out of town I can actually accomplish things. It came out ugly as sin but I love it...it was such a PITA to have tools all over the place.

PS. To the skeptic that thinks everyone is lying about everything and thinks that I just proved that I'm a liar too, I took the pics on my phone, which took a dump the next day.

[george wilson]

out of surgery and can hardly see. My "new" eye is under a plastic guard. I feel wall eyed. I can make out vague shapes and colors through it,but at strange angles. Computer screen seems tilted at a 30 degree angle through it. Might be the guar. I'm going to go rest for a while/

[john brenton]

Sounds like they gave you some pretty good drugs to boot. I think it's safe to be on the forum, but stay away from the lathe!

out of surgery and can hardly see. My "new" eye is under a plastic guard. I feel wall eyed. I can make out vague shapes and colors through it,but at strange angles. Computer screen seems tilted at a 30 degree angle through it. Might be the guar. I'm going to go rest for a while/

[David Weaver]

George - I think now is the time to do impressionist art until the effects wear off. Maybe you can strike it rich.

[george wilson]

Might be the guar??? What did I mean by that? They numbed my eye with an injection near the eyeball,and though they kept me Hopefully,tomorrow,the side effects will have worn off and I'll be better,I was relaxed so much by their calmative in the I.V.,I did not know the surgery had taken place. I still can't see very well,but by magic the images in my right eye have ceased being tilted at about 30º.

[harry strasil]

I think you meant, it might be the guard that is distorting your vision George.

[george wilson]

No,I have peeked out from under the guard. It's the numbing injection near my eye. just a while ago,the tilted vision righted itself,though I still get fuzzy vision. This is all normal,and will clear up soon according to the doctor,and friends who have already had this surgery. The hard part is going to be when they do that big eye in the middle of my forehead!!!

P.S.,I JUST saw what you were referring to!!