I often see posts about this glue. What are it's advantages over PVA glue?
[OP]
Member
I often see posts about this glue. What are it's advantages over PVA glue?
Member
Reversability, rub joints, does not show through finishes, hammer veneering, etc.
Downsides - glue prep time, some dont like the odor, lack of water resistance.
Mike
From the workshop under the staircase, Clinton Township, MI
Semper Audere!
Member
by applying heat, you can soften the glue, reposition the piece, and let dry in the new position.
Also, if gluing something like rawhide, the hide glue (made from rawhide scraps) will be the best glue, all other factors being equal - but not very weather (water) resistant.
If you want to say you used traditional materials, then Tite Bond would be out and Hide Glue in (but not the TB Hide Glue, as this is slightly different that actual hide glue).
I make bows, and quite often I will use hide glue to keep with the traditional aspect of the craft.
Guest
Member
The reversibility of hide glue makes it ideal for musical instruments, that over a long service life, and sometimes hazardous one, need repairs that can be undone.
Cracks reopen and need to have the glue cleaned out before the seam can be rejoined and glued again.
The same goes for repairing Period Furniture, since restoration demands that whatever is done to a piece, it must be able to be undone.
Hide glue has no gap filling properties, so it requires wood-to-wood contact to be successful, and so demands more precision in making joints.
Member
I recently took a class in Vermont where the director professed his admiration for hide glue as genuinely strong. His claim is that on any large glue up, there will be necessary adjustments while the joints are assembled.
His notion was that PVA glues form a "skin" when pieces are joined.
If the joint is moved (intentionally or by accident), adhesion is compromised.
His guesstimate was that 30-40% of the strength in a PVA bond is lost this way.
Because hide glue sets up more slowly, you get 100% of the strength from adhesion.
Member
JimOriginally Posted by Jim Matthews
I used hot glue (hide glue) exclusively for three years in my first job making furniture and I like it okay but chose not to use it as my main glue when I set up on my own. I don't agree with the director of that class you took; saying that hide glue sets up slowly is contrary to my experience with it; it works well for rub joints because it grabs fast, but that quick set makes subsequent adjustments problematic, much more so than with PVA/aliphatic resin glues like Elmer's or Titebond. Additionally, it has the shortest open time of any glue I've used, by far; once it chills it gels, and if that happens it won't work as a glue so you have to clean it off and start all over. In that regard it's a great glue for learning how to work really, really quickly.
Member
Easy to Un-do when you need to repair...
Jerry
Member
It is reversible (though not always so easily, such as with a mortise and tenon), but, realistically, how many times in the working life of a woodworker does he or she need to take apart a glue joint they made or otherwise repair their own work?
Member
I believe the director never used hide glue or would not have made this statement. I don't recall the actual temp of the melted hide glue I used but I could tell you this... I was forced to buy a glue pot because back in the 1970's and 1980's a typical crock pot was too hot.
As soon as the glue starts to cool off, it is setting up. As a matter of fact, the fast set-up time can be a plus in chair assembly.
I used it a lot on restoring valuable antiques. On the not so valuable ones, I use PVA glue.
Member
No one seems to have mentioned that hide glue is the most time proven glue,having been in use for thousands of years.
Contributor
130 - 140 degrees is a good hide glue temperature.
re: advantages
-Hide glue will not creep under load. White and Yellow glue will creep. This may or not be important, depending on the kind of joint
-Hide glue has far better heat resistance although it will fail with an onslaught of heat and moisture.
-As others have mentioned, hide glue is reversible although white, yellow and epoxy can easily be made to release also with heat and/or moisture. Hide glue will happily reactivate and stick to itself whereas white and yellow glues bond poorly to old glue.
-hide accepts dye and stains. A slightly sloppy joint here and there will not be anywhere near as noticeable as if it were made with yellow glue
-hide glue reactivates with heat. This is supremely convenient for laminating veneers (just iron it down!). No clamps needed either...
-...no clamps needed often timesThe joint shrinks as it dries, drawing the parts in tighter. This is very convenient for veneering, reinforcement cleats, and other such things where clamping maybe either very inconvenient or practically impossible.
There's probably more I'm leaving out
disadvantages:
- ridiculously short open time. You need to work fast and/or change how you work. Warm shops, pre-heat parts with a hair dryer or heat gun, etc etc.
- the stupid mixing, heating and maintaining routine. It's a supreme pain in the tuckus. Very inconvenient unless you're using it all day, every day and are setup with a routine. If you just need to glue one or two things, it will take you longer to whip up a batch of hide glue than to grab some Titebond and actually do the stupid procedure.
- stinky? Meh...some people think so. I think it smells like chicken soup. If it smells really bad, it's probably old and moldy. It does smell like SOMETHING, though, so I guess that's a disadvantage
- It has practically ZERO gap filling ability. If you don't have a perfect joint, or near perfect at any rate, hide glue simply will not work well.
- You need a heating pot of some sort. These can cost upwards of $100+, or you'll have to cobble together your own and monitor it with a candy thermometer. Even the cheap homemade solutions will put you in the $30 range by the time you've purchased the pot and thermometer.
That's off the top of my head. It certainly makes sense for some things. Someone mentioned violins. The violin family instruments are designed to be taken apart and worked on. It makes less sense in a guitar where it's NOT designed to be disassembled, and any significant disassembly (like popping off a top) has so many other associated problems that the type of glue someone used is the least of your worries. Many think it makes sense for gluing on bridges. There are certain repairs where it makes sense because of the high likelihood of having to work on the repair again sometime in the future. Hot hide glue allows you to work right over the existing repair without having to clean anything out. A headstock crack comes to mind and a good place to use hide glue.
FWIW, I use Titebond II (recently switched from Titebond) and white glue when I need a little more time (Elmer's Glue All).
Member
A clarification, perhaps...
http://www.titebond.com/ProductLineT...t=2&prodline=5
Open time of ten minutes is double that of the original Titebond PVA.
I don't have any experience with glue pots, I use this stuff right out of the bottle.
If the assembly goes wrong, applied heat will allow repositioning the joint.
Member
Jim
That's not considered the "real" hide glue.
John,
Excellent summary of the pros and cons of hot glue.
Contributor
As an instrument maker, I consider one of the most important features of hide glue to be its rigidity and hardness when cured. Compared to PVA and epoxy, hide (the real, hot glue) sets up really hard, making joints that are acoustically superior. I recently "converted" a guitar-maker friend to using hide instead of PVA. He is excited about it, believing that his new guitars sound and respond better.
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