Chinese lasers - they're here !!!

[Rodne Gold]

George, Im not sure whether the slot will allow head focus as I havent tried it , however I would imagine so as there are 2 ways of focussing , you can move the lens assembly on the head piece up and down or you can use the table up and down, Apart from that , you can use different lenses.
I didnt notice the slots till looking at my pics , I am stopping off at my place today to pick up some stuff , so will check. On looking at my one pic of the small machine in my first posts , it appears the head clears the "slot" , but unlike my bigger machine , there appears to be no slot at the back of my smaller one..
As to the 100w+ tubes , you have to get the 1300 x 900 machine to use it
Heres the Reci site if you want more info on their tubes
http://www.recilaser.com/2010/en/index.html
I asked a lot of questions re power and the balance of delicacy vs power as the difference tween 80w and 150w is not huge money wise , but after lot of thought , decided that the 80w was fine, its still 50w up on my other machines
Most of my work would involve engraving and at most , cutting 10-12mm acrylic on the odd occasion
View it as a sort of decision you would make with an engraver and a cnc router , a big cnc router wont engrave and a small engraver wont route , you can strike a good balance tho.
A lot of the machines on their site are variants on base models with different configurations to suit particular industries , they also tend to advertise the same machine in like 6 different categorys, like textile cutting laser, perspex cutting laser, advertising industry laser, sign making laser and so on.

[Rodne Gold]

Just went into work and looked , seems the slot is a default on all machines , my small one has got a back slot too , and yes , you can slide thick stuff in and maintain focus, plenty clearance for stuff up to maybe 1" or thicker and the table can be raised to support thinner stuff that would bow or sag. I didnt remember seeing it on Vincent de klerks machine as he had blocked his off with some vinyl. Not too sure I will ever use the slots , as I have used pass thru maybe 2-3 x with my Explorers , but its a nice feature to have. I recon one could maybe even adapt a spare stepper plugged into the Y axis as a feed mechanism for a Roll to Roll cutting system if you wanted.
One other thing you must bear in mind is that the big machines are BIG - even the 900 x 600 dwarfs my explorers which have about the same bed size , you must make sure you can actually get them in your premises , I would hate to transport one of these up stairs and they certainly wont fit thru a std doorway.
Nice thing is that they are way easier to work on than the GCC machines as there are latch type hinged hatches all over the things so you can get at components or adjust stuff

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Rodne;
Thanks for info and warning on the size-already told my wife that kitchen area is in jeopardy of being converted since she doesn't seem to use it much anymore...., and that's when the fight started!!
Just received the price list from Shenhui and am blown away- I can buy 8 machines for the price of a Spirit GX and still have enough cash for two weeks in Barbados!
Granted, not quite apples to apples but enough desired features are shared-actually some significant advantages with the Shenhui machines.

Sounds like the slots will work out fine for me.
Are you familiar with double headed systems?
Do they use two separate laser tubes?
Are they strictly for engraving/cutting multiples of the same object or can they engrave halves of a larger image in half the time?
All the videos I have seen seem to show cutting/engraving duplicates.
Did you get both the regular lens and the imported lens? Any apparent difference or too early to tell?
Best Regards;
George
Laserarts

[Rodne Gold]

There are 2 types of double headed systems , one where there is a tube that fires from either side of the machine onto each of 2 heads that move on the gantry and that move in unison , I think the big advantage is doing multiples. You could probably engrave 2 halves of a big graphic IF you can match up the 2 halves exactly , i forsee problems....

The other type has a static head pointing up and one pointing down at each other , the workpiece moves inbetween them and they cut/engave it both from the top and bottom , ie double sided engraving , they seem to use this for die boards and real thick stuff , its a MASSIVE machine. Their 650w YAG metal cutting machine works more or less the same , but only a top noizzle/head , the workpiece moves on this huge bed of spikes , that machine consumes 18kw power and uses gas (02 etc assist) , that is a SERIOUSLY big machine. That have some other lasers there , a big Rofin Sinar and a trumpf they use for making their parts and which are now idle as their yag seems to be the ones they use now , saw it cutting 5mm steel circles , was impressive.

I got the regular lenses , they were real cheap , I looked at the ones I got and cant tell the difference between them and the ones in my GCc machines , I didnt know they had imported ones at the time , had I known that , would have gone for them. My 18mm lenses were $30 - so I bought every focal length they offered
I bought 6 x 15mm lenses as replacements for my spirits. I cant see the imported lenses being THAT much better... but I also dont think they were that much more than the "local" lenses ( I seem to have a figure of $50=70 in my head), so will get a set with my Galvo when it comes.

As to cost comparisons , well the only real issue I saw with a machine with the conventional glass tube (not reci) i that you can't get quite the detail you can with the GCc machines and top engraving speed was about 1/2 or a little more , however the cutting edge quality and smoothness were actually a LOT better then my GCC's. I have no doubt that if Vincents machine , that I saw and "tested' had had it's settings "tweaked" and optimised , it could have done better on the engraving side , but he has one main cutting application and it works very well so hasnt fiddled much , I am intending to optimise big time.

I am also not too sure that all the Corel graphics I have designed with the GCC's in mind will translate flawlessly or without some shuffling around to the new laser , its no biggie to us tho.

When at the factory , I went thru the software and it is almost TOO configureable in terms of fine tuning the machine , you can for example , just for NON cutting movement , set ramp accleration speed , set the linear speed and then independantly set the slow down speed and all that type of thing , it actually could be confusing. I can send you the software manual if you pm me your e-mail.

So getting back to cost , well the machine is so well priced that if it for some reason is a total dog , which it isnt , then you havent lost the farm on it , and even if it really only works a year or 2 and then becomes "worn out" , you just buy another..... $6k for me for a years work is real good value , means the machine costs me round $20 a day and can easily generate 5-10x that a day.

Probably also get a significant amount back when you sell it to the iron scrap merchants , it will most likely be crushed , sent back to china and appear as a kettle or even the casing of your next laser from China.....

I can tell you this , that it is unlikely that I will ever buy a "mainstream" machine again , certainly nothing the size and power of a 1200 x 800 80+w as it just not affordable...

[Jiten Patel]

Incredible post Rodney. I am very very temped to go this route when we are ready to get ourselves a flatbed.

What will you be using your galvo for?

[Rodne Gold]

We are commisioning the lasers as we speak , its not quite as simple as plugging it and pressing start.

For one thing , you have to drill a hole in the ground (we went thru a concrete reinforced floor - took us like 2 hrs with the wrong type of drill)and put in an earth spike and cround the machine chassis to that.

The ducting we use and the ducting supplied are different diameters , so we had a bit of work to do prior to hooking up the exhaust blowers in teerms of reducers and running around for ducting to match our PVC vent pipes.

The chiller supplied with my smaller machine is a piece of sh-t... its a box with an aquarium pump in it , a old capilliary type temp gauge and a stupid fan to blow on the water - you might as well just use a bucket of water and submerge the pump. The Cw 5000 chiller at $350 extra (for the big machine) is another story , that is good kit. Im sorry I didnt go for that one for the small laser , but they said the cheap cw3000 chiller is adequate - we shall see.

Non of the bearings/whatever is lubed , there is some issue sending lube in the package , so we have used white lithium grease to lube em and light oil on the fast moving parts.

The tubes and machine have to be hooked up to the chillers and run for a few hours to remove all trapped air etc.

The tubes have to be put into their tube cradles, have to be hooked up to the low and high voltage leads and adjusted as to alignment, the cradles are like adjustable gymbals so it's fairly easy.
We had to make a hole in the enclosure and the first mirror holder , the reason for this is that we want the red beam pointer and laser to be coincidental - and the way to do this 100% is let both of em shoot out 4-5m and adjust at that point , not essential to do this , but why not? It makes alignment much easier cos you dont need to fire the laser , just use the red dot pointer.

We are also being a little anal and are using laser and digital levels to check and level all the slides , mirror holders , gantrys etc - to the nth degree. doing the same to the main table.

One small problem with my big machines knife blade table , the knives are a touch too thick and need some filing or small grinding to fit into their slots , not too much of an issue , I am not really planning on using this table.

At any rate , we are at the point of actually firing the tubes , which we will do tommorow , all we have to do after that is mirror and red dot alignment (easy) and hook up the puters and test out the software.

I would say its about a 2-3 day job to really get everything perfect. I would NOT recommend this laser to anyone who is a totally 10 thumbed newbie and only wants to press a button , you must be a *little* handy....

We still have some mods but those can wait , the main one being changing the belt drive motorised table to a chain drive.

Jiten , my reasoning behind the Co2 galvo is that we do a ton of plates and smaller item engraving , the galvo is cheap and will take much less time to do lets say 20 small plate and cut em out (of nothing thicker than 1.5mm -more like 0.8mm rowmark flexi type material) than my other machines that scan, freeing them up.
A 200 x 200 marking field will allow me to do lets say 4 columns and 8 rows of plates 45mm x 22mm or the like. Apart from that we manufacture and engrave a lot of wood and acrylic products , using the big lasers to cut thicker stuff and doing the engraving on the galvo for these plaques and awards will also be quick - I have lots of labour , so having someone feed the galvo onsies and lining em up and pressing the button is not an issue. The software to run the galvo is very very good for industrial type engraving , bar coding , serialisation and so forth , opening up a new high speed / high volume marking market for us.
In essence the galvo would be a high speed small item processor - almost 50% of my production falls within "small" items.
At it's price , its well worth taking a chance on...

One of the things that has impressed me is your wedding invites etc , it's a field I would like to explore , however I really do not want to have to start a business model from scratch - its not my core business so would be something of a side line , so here's a suggestion to you..
Perhaps you can sort of establish a franchise or liscence a business package - designs , marketing , paper types , technology etc - I might be interested in something like that .. Im sure there will be many others as well. There are folk here doing similar type things but nothing I have seen touches your stuff...

I recon if you get a flatbed and a small print and cut machine like a roland , you can actually expand your line hugely , full colour printing on vinyl , cloth , paper , larger format cutting and engraving combined with the galvo cut paper and so on , I think for a creative guy like you , the sky is the llimit.

[Ian Franks]

Rodney
I have being sitting quietly in Johannesburg and absorbing your posts. We bought a 50w chinese laser to help with our cupcake wrapper side of the business.
We used to print wedding invites in our print shop but discourage this as our system is not slick enough to deal with them in way that leaves the customer happy. We are considering this again but need the system in place to deal with the endless artwork changes, even had it when the press is running and then there is another change. Then deal with the inevitable thanks for the job can we have a discount.

Are there any SA regulations wrt lasers and emissions that you know of that we should comply with.

[Dan Hintz]

need the system in place to deal with the endless artwork changes, even had it when the press is running and then there is another change. Then deal with the inevitable thanks for the job can we have a discount.

Ouch, Ian... are contracts not handled well where you are? Customers should sign a contract/quote that lays out what they are providing you, what you are providing them, and what charges are involved for any changes. The charge can be based upon time spent fixing things, materials lost, etc. Discounts at the end are a non-starter... you both agreed to a price in the beginning, and asking for a discount after the work has been done should not even be entertained.

[Ian Franks]

Ouch, Ian... are contracts not handled well where you are? Customers should sign a contract/quote that lays out what they are providing you, what you are providing them, and what charges are involved for any changes. The charge can be based upon time spent fixing things, materials lost, etc. Discounts at the end are a non-starter... you both agreed to a price in the beginning, and asking for a discount after the work has been done should not even be entertained.

Dan
We always give a written quote, just weddings are very emotional for the families. Now we only print if we get the artwork. It just creates too much tension if we do it any artwork. For our normal customers they understand signing off a proof. We never entertain discounts once the job is finished just this does get to you. That is why you have to be very slick upfront.

[Jiten Patel]

Rodne, I am flattered mate. our business model is pretty strong, but is still in development and I don't think we are business savvy enough YET, to franchise our brand out. Also we want to build the brand into a name which is known and develop the product line before we take any moves like that. but when we do, you will be the first to know.

Ian, weddings are very emotional. We deal with Brides (or bridezillas sometimes) all day long. You have to be extremely calm and patient and explain all the options and go through everything with a fine tooth comb. We have so many options, sometimes it's mind boggling. 180 different card types and colours, 100's of design options and sizes and styles and and and and and! So before we go to print or laser anything, we are for a 50% non-refundable deposit with the remainder being paid before shipping or collection.

Rodne is right, you do have to charge quite high prices, but saying that, laser-cutting doesn't come cheap and it looks incredible, so therefore warrants the price tag. Our average order ranges from £500-700 and our highest order so far has been £5000 with the lowest being £200. It's all about marketing though. You can have the cure for cancer, but if no one knows it exists, what's the point!

[Rodne Gold]

Jiten , I think you have a emminently marketable product right now , the only issue you really have to consider is if promulgating your package cuts your own throat , IE takes your own business away. Its very difficult to "wholesale" and retail as well. However we also have the same problem with some of my materials and products , and if I do supply wholesale , I only really supply outside my area and do tell those that I supply to that I "retail" in my catchment area.
As you rightly said , having a product without marketing is like winking at a woman in the dark , only you know what you are doing , thus if you do "franchise" you have to really provide a business and marketing plan.

We have test fired our lasers today , havent hooked up the software yet , but have done all the alignment (which for us was a snap , as we often align our other machines , so are well used to the procedure , basically the same on all lasers.)

I have includes some pics of some lines that indicates the spot sizes of 'em , we tested both chinese machines , the 1200 x 800 reci 80w tubed and the 900 x 600 ordinary 80w glass tubed machines at the WORST point on the table , bottom right , the part furthest from the beam.

Watching the tube while the laser is on is kinda like Star trek stuff , you see the beam of rose/purple light in the tube , luke walker and light sabres come to mind.

The light line was done by the reci tubed machine at 20% power , the 2 darker lines were the chinese lasers at 70% power , the 2 small squares were done on our 30w RF synrad tubed spirits at the closest place to the beam


As you can see the spot sizes are EXTREMELY acceptable , this is a macro shot and has been resampled for display so results don't show that well , however by eye (and with a 10x loupe) it can be seen that the low powered (20%) reci's tube output is the same if not a bit finer than the RF tubes , the higher powered reci (70%) is a little better than the "cheap" 80w tube and is wider than the spirits at 70% power , however 70% power on the spirits is 20w , while 70% on the reci is 50+ w and the heat affected zone is larger.
All in all , far better than I expected for "cheap chinese glass tubed" machines.
I will post a lot more results , niggles , glitches , pros and cons in the next few days - but things look very promising.

[Dan Hintz]

Rodney,

Awaiting burn results from your galvo unit...




Jit, you have a PM...

[Ian Franks]

Jit
Looking at your sale values there is money in wedding invites. We have done cupcake wrappers for weddings and money is not the problem. That is why it may be worthwhile looking again at wedding invites but pricing them with loads of design/customer time. IE get out of the printshop pricing mode. Then just smile nicely at the customers.
We only cut once the order has been paid and offer credit card payment on the website or EFT. Customers also come in to our shop and can pay there as well.

[Rodne Gold]

My laser fires thru a beam combiner , its a sort of lens/mirror at 45 degrees that is combined with the first optic mirror , its near the optical output of the tube before the first mirror.
What you actually have to do is drill a hole in the mirror holder back plate , remove the mirror and make a hole in the side of the machine , then you fire the laser at a target about 3m away and adjust the tube or the mirror holder or the red beam to make the red pointer co incide with the burn. that is really if you want to be totally anal about it , otherwise just align the red dot the same as the laser at the 2nd mirro , it should be quite accurate.

Some red dot pointers do NOT follow the beam path , they are not before the first optic , you cant do anything with thise.

[Rodne Gold]

Perhaps there are some regulations in SA, however never heard of them . These lasers we have , albeit being told there are safety interlocks , I can't see em and you can run em open. I would imagine that workmans compensation would give you a hard time if one of your employees got injured due to the laser , either blinded or severely shoicked. I think your biggest risk is HT voltage shocks , albeit if you have a good ground and have insulated the tube terminals , this shouldn't happen , the next risk would be being blinded by a stray beam , however lasering with the lid closed would stop that and other injury. Only real thing I have been able to find is this
http://www.vantagemedifest.com/images/sa_guidelines.pdf
I think with wedding invites , one needs to charge outrageous prices , in the range of R50+ per invite with a minimum job of R1500 ($8 and $200) to take into account the bride , the groom , their parents and relatives who will all want to have a say in the design , colour , texture etc of the invite. Kinda what we call a F Off and Die price ... so high that either you FOAD or if you accept , the profit is worth all the aggro you gonna have to endure do the job
We do certificates and have more or less the same problems , however we print them on a VERY good canon photoquality a3 printer that takes different weights and textures of paper and just design in Corel , normally quite small qtys and no one seems to balk at prices of R25-35 for a run of 20 A4's , even better , we often frame them in some way or another , this adds substantially to the profit. We just e-mail a proof and get the customer to sign off , once it's approved , it takes a few minutes to do the run. If the customer changes artwork after signing off , they pay again.