Charlesworth vs Coseman Videos

[Chris Fournier]

Honestly, all of this thread to discuss dovetails, the stock intrade of woodworkers since the times of the pyramids? While well made dovetails are accepted as a hallmark of craftsmanship, they have been so forever, there is nothing new here. They are not hard to make (with a couple of exceptions), they do not require the best tooling to make them and they do not have to be blessed by anyone other than the maker. Also there is no race, who cares how long you take to get your perfect DT? The object is good craftsmanship, tutelage is not a bad thing but in the end you've got to develop the hand skills with time on the tools.

This thread has gone viral because of the tendancy to worship personalities in this craft. Be free, be your own man/woman. Learn the principles behind sharpening and using the tools that you own and then get a simple analog paper and ink article from "the old" FWW or what have you and then practice in your shop on your bench (or on your Schwarz Roubo Styled bench) until you get repeatably acceptable results.

We need some perspective on woodworking these days. Design elegantly for the application, apply yourself fully to each step of the building process from wood selection to installation.

I am reminded of a fly-fisher that I knew that prided himself on being able to cast out 75' of line everytime. Great skill and technique; just not that useful when most trout were actually about 20' from his rod tip. Terrible fisherman, great fly caster.

[Sean Hughto]

Amen. I guess it's easier to get worked up about silly little threshold questions than to face the daunting prospect actually creating something. Which tool is best, which method is best, how do I sharpen best, and on and on. Just get on with using what you've got and you'll automatically figure out what works best for YOU in all these areas.

[Ed Looney]

Perhaps if one shares what works best for them with others it will increase learning so that everyone can have access to knowledge that just may better their best. Nothing about this should be about personalities. The focus should be on sharing knowledge with others to aid in the quest for improved craftsmanship. For me this forum is like shopping in a grocery store. I don't need or want everything on the shelves. I do like to shop around to see if there is some idea on the shelf that I can use. Thankfully there are those who have shared their best with this forum because I have been able to learn and improve from their experience. However the ideas I cannot use I just leave on the shelf for others.


Ed

[Mike Henderson]

I guess I don't fall that far on the side of tools as the determinate of good work. When I first started making dovetails, I use a small Japanese saw and Freud chisels. I read a book on how to do dovetails. My first dovetail wasn't that good, but I learned from that attempt and my third was pretty good. I used that setup (Japanese saw and less than LN chisels) for a bunch of years and made a lot of dovetails.

Since then, I've bought tools with higher price tags - LN and LV saws, LN and Blue Spruce chisels - but I haven't seen a lot of difference in my dovetails. I have learned a lot more about making dovetails, some from Rob Cosman's DVD, but mostly it's little "tricks", such as better ways to lay out the dovetails, or ideas for "fancier" dovetails.

Everyone is different but I think that many woodworkers - woodworkers who are careful and patient - can learn to make very good dovetails with modestly priced tools.

Mike

[Let me add one additional point: I have great respect for people like Rob who spent years learning their craft and then spent more years perfecting their teaching methods so they could pass along what they've learned. It's people like him - people who DO - that we should respect, not the critic who sits back and takes pot shots.]

[george wilson]

You guys might think some of the tools I used to make the inlaid guitar are crude. I didn't have A2 tools,or powdered metal either(still don't). I had only old Disston back saws,wooden planes with original irons in them,and a deep throated wooden fret saw I made for sawing the marquetry work.

I still use the same set of 1965ish Marples chisels. They are,at least about 58-59 rockwell. Not soft like some new stuff.

I wish I had had the .015" dovetail saws we can get today. They are the best for dovetailing,but I did cut perfectly accurate dovetails with my old Disstons.

The most important thing I taught my new apprentices was how to sharpen their tools. This was the first thing I always taught them.

The tools I made the big harpsichord with (which I made in private before I opened to the public) included the 1960's Stanley block plane that most now shun, with factory blade,my Marples chisels from 1965,Disston back saw with about .023" thick blade(can't recall offhand the exact thickness),newish Disston crosscut saw,Sears handscrews,and generally the ordinary type of tools you'd buy in a hardware store at that time. I kept them very sharp. When they dulled,I resharpened them.

I used an oilstone at that time(a Norton India),and an Arkansas stone,and strop. Diamond stones were far in the future. So were ceramic stones.

Never forget that the best masterpieces you see in museums were made with hand tools that did not use super steels in them. My 18th.C. carving tools are variable in quality,and so are the 19th.C. ones.

I am not saying to buy bad tools. I'm telling you what I made my best work with,and advising all of you to keep them sharp. Develop patience and learn how to really look carefully at what you are doing all the time.

[Chris Fournier]

Rob, if you have only seen one properly sharpened chisel over the years that you've been coaching then that says a lot about your students - at the beginning of your class anyways. I simply cannot believe that this statement is true, there is no secret to sharpening any of our handtools and the subject has been "demystified" by others for many many years.

At 60 years old and regardless of eyesight I'd say that a person has had almost a complete life of effectively researching subject matter and learning skills. Do they now have the money to spend on a class or two? Yeah, a lot more than they did 30 years earlier. Could they have learned these skills on their own and become extremely proficient (as hobbiests or pros)? Of course and multitudes have done so and will continue to do so.

Your take on tools is a bit over the top. A good craftsman can tune up existing and create his own tools if needs be. Good craftsmanship starts with a desire to become proficient, not the desire to collect "the best" tooling.

Your last response to this thread is nothing more than your personal justification for your business activities and I think we already all understand that.

[David Keller NC]

So there you have it, buy good tools (you only cry once!),choose your favorite author/demonstrator and buy a DVD or take a class and be farther ahead as a result.

Rob Cosman

I think you are quite right about this - there is nothing wrong with seeking instruction, and I can speak first-hand that trying to figure things out on your own is a lot harder than having someone show you.

And my comments about applying inappropriate standards to the humble dovetail are in line with that - there is definitely something worthwhile about learning to cut dovetails that fit from the saw, and not having a glaringly obvious gaps in the result (or splitting the tail board when the joint is assembled). Unfortunately, however, there is the other extreme, and in my view, it is driven by an unfortunate aesthetic derived from machine tools and factory-made items. Wood cannot be dimensioned to thousandths of an inch such that perfectly produced parts from a cut list can be assembled into piece of furniture that is in any way better, or even as good as, a piece of furniture where the parts are fit to the other parts in a manner of working that no factory could function under.

It is that last part that is the idea that I most often find myself trying to un-teach a beginner, and it dovetails (exuse the pun ) into the idea that obsessing over technique to the detriment of actually designing and completing something is inappropriate, unless learning and practicing technique is the actual goal that one has and wishes to spend his or her time on. But I don't know too many folks that have that as a goal, but many of these same folks are the ones that endlessly read "what's the right way to sharpen" threads, and the ones that insist on posting threads asking which tool they should buy from a selection of high-quality makers.

That sort of mentality results in the "OMG! My new router's spindle has a runnout of 1 thousandths of an inch!" threads, and it unfortunately punishes the rest of us by polluting the magazines that we'd like to read with "Tool test: We test 15 brands of Philips Screwdrivers".

That, however, does not mean that all tools are equivalent, that there's really any truth in the saying "It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools" if that craftsman has purchased a bunch of tool-shaped objects from Harbor Freight. Rob is absolutely correct that crappy, ill-adjusted or just plain non-functional cheap tools are the bane of a beginner. Yes, I can cut a halfway decent set of dovetails with a plastic-handled stanley back saw from Home Depot that's filed cross-cut and has a set appropriate to green firewood cutting, but that's after years and years of practice. Beginners shouldn't have that steepening of the learning curve put in front of them - ever, and all too often I see folks on the net forums declare that Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, Wenzlof, Blue Spruce, etc... are too expensive in an objective sense. That's foolish in the extreme, and more importantly is objectionable because it often comes from a fundamental cultural view that extreme frugality is somehow honorable, and anything else is "getting ripped off", "fattening the wallets of shysters" and other deplorable attitudes. Just because one can get something more cheaply than the what another has purchased doesn't mean that the second person is stupid, nor that getting something cheaply is honorable or admirable - quite the opposite is usually true.

[Jim Koepke]

They all arrive unsatisfied with their results or not yet tried...

I made a comment a few years ago in a seminar that I had yet to see a properly sharpened plane or chisel show up in any of my classes, DC was in the audience and he commented that having taught since 1975 he had only seen it twice.

Rob, if you have only seen one properly sharpened chisel over the years that you've been coaching then that says a lot about your students - at the beginning of your class anyways. I simply cannot believe that this statement is true, there is no secret to sharpening any of our handtools and the subject has been "demystified" by others for many many years.

I think this indicates exactly the students demographic.

Have not yet tried... May not even know where or how to start.

The unsatisfied may be unsatisfied because they have not yet learned to sharpen their tools.

It is often my suggestion that people go ahead and try something. After all, I was able to do it. If I can, anyone should be able to do it. Well, this doesn't always work. But with trying to sharpen an inexpensive saw or cutting some dovetails, what is there to lose? Then again, sometimes I have felt the mind freeze up trying to figure how many tails a joint should have or other aspects of wood working.

Many of us were able dive right in and "jump the hurdles." Some folks can not get started without someone showing them how and where to start.

For some, helping these folks find their way is an occupation just as valid as that of a tour guide or college professor.

So, some of us will continue to advise people to jump in with both feet and others will continue to suggest the DVD or classes.

Fortunately, in a way, we are all correct.

There will always be those who jump in and get it as there will be those who get lost at what exact tools they have to buy before they can get started.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

"What experience is yourskepticism based on? " - Rob Cosman QUOTED

My skepticism is base on my personal experience Rob, personal experience working in the industry, as a supplier, craftsman and casual mentor of several woodworkers. It is also based on the many woodworkers whom I have met over the years, woodworkers whom I have visited in their shop settings or invited to my own shop to discuss our craft, tools and techniques. My smaller survey sample has a much higher incidence of competence than yours. This will not fill any classes though will it?


It's my opinion Rob that much of the push back that you get from people, (myself included) on these forums has to do with the delivery and tone of your dialogue. I don't think that it is any coincidence that the other instructors mentioned in this thread tend to let their "product" speak for itself - they rarely if ever engage in a thread like you do and when they do they do so graciously and respectfully regardless of the origianal poster's position. I have found these qualities lacking in your responses.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Jim Koepke brings up a good point, varying degrees of beginner success. For years I taught sea kayaking and in the winter ran pool sessions to teach people how to eskimo roll their boats. While the groups were generally younger than the woodworking demographic, there is a direct correlation in the levels of hand-eye coordination found between the two groups irrespective of age. There were the very rare individuals who "got" their first successful eskimo roll during the first of 6 sessions of 2 hours. They were able to combine the verbal commentary, the demonstration, and the physical modeling exercises into success on the first day. The vast majority of the class members got their roll about the 3-5th session. The final members took right up until the end and their rolls were still less than relaible and were still occasionally unsuccessful.

The whole point of the first paragraph is that people vary in how they quickly and how successfully they learn any physical skill. Dovetailing is definately a physical skill and it requires developing a kinestetic sense through good quality repetition of both the parts like sawing to a line or chopping to the baseline and then putting everything together for the whole result. Like in the sports world, a positive mental preparation and attitude improve results. There are those rare individuals (whom I envy) who have such good coordination that they get quality dovetails right away. The rest of us have to practice more, think harder about the process, and take it slow enough that we do it right. Speed should come only after experience develops our skills and we consistently do it right time after time. Make no mistake about it, cutting any kind of joinery by hand is a physical skill and it requires as much practice as learning to play any sport well.

[george wilson]

I just cannot agree that a top notch saw will,in the hands of a beginner,always cut true,flat,gluable joints. I taught high school shop for 6 years,and taught adults in community college in evenings,and,of course,in the museum for many years. It is surprising what a mess can be made with decent tools.

As an extra bit of information,I am certain that people just getting started at 60 years of age have a profound disadvantage. We are born with many nerve endings in our brains. If we use our hands early on,these are retained. If we do not,the extra nerves disappear. This was found out quite a few years ago by scientists examining brain tissue of people who had different occupations. Salesmen had far fewer of these nerves than people who worked at a skilled trade. At first they thought that the nerve endings were developed as skills were learned. Later on,studies of newborn's brain tissue showed that we are born with them,and must use them to keep them. People who have more rapid development of success have done something over the years that helped them retain their extra nerve development.

I have not meant to pick an argument,and have not engaged in personal stuff. However,in my long experience,some of the statements being made just do not agree with what I have learned over the years.

[Chris Fournier]

I am not often a natural at a new skill that I am trying to learn; most often I grind my way up the learning curve in the two steps forward one step backward fashion - in a word I am unexceptional. I am also not a fan of getting beaten up repeatedly when I do the same thing wrong and get the same poor results. Over the years, in rare moments of calm reflection I have learned to diagnose the activity at hand and move a bit speedier on my path to "acceptable success". It is all too easy to just mindlessly chop, saw, strike, jump, run, shoot without much thought and then be satisifed that you have practiced and should be better at the chosen activity.

Woodworking is a great activity to develop your own diagnostic learning process because things are not happening at light speed. There is no need to blow right past that last plane pass that tore out badly or saw right off the line or ruin a good cutting tool while grinding. We have the luxury of stopping the process right then and there and figuring out what has gone wrong.

Planes tend not to fall out of the sky that often because the operators are serious about staying aloft! They have a to do list and they stick to it religiously. The hand made joinery to do list has been exhaustively documented, achieving good joinery means following the to do list until you can do! "Perfect prior practice improves performance" is what some coach once said to me...

On the subject of instruction I would like to say this: you will be better at any given skill when you begin to perceive and recognize patterns and be able to develop a "when I do this, this happens" sensibility. This asset is only mastered through repetition and personal experience. You can be told about the patterns all day long but they will not be yours until you roll up your sleeves and earn them by doing.

[Jim Koepke]

I just cannot agree that a top notch saw will,in the hands of a beginner,always cut true,flat,gluable joints. I taught high school shop for 6 years,and taught adults in community college in evenings,and,of course,in the museum for many years. It is surprising what a mess can be made with decent tools.

It doesn't surprise me one bit. Just watching friends and my kids growing up or my own efforts has shown me this.

We are born with many nerve endings in our brains. If we use our hands early on,these are retained. If we do not,the extra nerves disappear. This was found out quite a few years ago by scientists examining brain tissue of people who had different occupations. Salesmen had far fewer of these nerves than people who worked at a skilled trade.

LOL! So that explains my biggest problem with salesmen. Oh wait, I'm thinking brain cells.

At first they thought that the nerve endings were developed as skills were learned. Later on,studies of newborn's brain tissue showed that we are born with them,and must use them to keep them. People who have more rapid development of success have done something over the years that helped them retain their extra nerve development.

This is interesting. When I was a teaching assistant in the 1960s, there were some new studies that indicated repetitive physical activities increased learning abilities. Since I didn't end up pursuing a teaching career it wasn't something added to my research. But it seems a valid avenue of the nerve training and mental retention. A lot of physical training/activities can become instinctive reactions. There is a concept of learning crossover, but this may not be the place to delve into that subject.

I have not meant to pick an argument,and have not engaged in personal stuff. However,in my long experience,some of the statements being made just do not agree with what I have learned over the years.

You will get no argument from me on that. Even if they are my statements with which you do not agree. After all, my statements are ultimately just my opinion and an opinion is proof of nothing.

jtk

[george wilson]

I'll have to go back and read your posts,Johnny. I wasn't aware I was even disagreeing with you.

If what I say is an opinion,I try to state such(at least I'm making it a rule lately). If what I say is based upon experience,it carries more weight,and I'll mention it as actual experience,unless I forget to.

P.S. : I re read all your posts,and can't find something I disagree with. Your first assertion that giving "times" needed to sharpen a chisel,I definitely agree with. I have taught many people to sharpen,and it seems like the ones who never get a sharp edge in any reasonable length of time AREN'T bearing down hard enough. How hard you bear down to at least get a coarse edge established will most definitely affect your time. Approaching the finer grits,lighter bearing is fine.

I even defended Rob Cosman,and watched one of his online videos. I cannot believe that someone who tries to make his way with woodworking has no heart or soul. This just isn't the field you get into to make money.

[Jim Neeley]

Last Christmas I was doubly-blessed. Last fall my son and I were watching a video on building a coffee table and my bride fell in love with the design and asked for one for Christmas. She really liked the design from the video (28"x48" with two slide-through drawers, retained in the center with rare earth magnets), but wanted one made from red oak (all solid oak, of course) but toned with a honey-amber dye to match some other furniture. My 20yo son and I agreed to give it a try over his Christmas break from the University.

This might not seem like much to many of you but it was WAY more than anything I'd made to date. Additionally I'd not gotten into dying anything with a large visible surface. I knew I wanted an alcohol-soluble dye and knew the best finish would come from spraying... another technique I'd never used.

After watching the video of the panel glue-up, flattening something wider than my planer (a first), learning the value of decorative kerf cuts and offset panels a couple of times it felt do-able. So, while he was at scholl, O picked up the oak so it could acclimitize, studied dyes and conversion guns until I settled on Trans-Tint and a C.A. Tech conversion gun. I studied the 'net and picked up several books on spray finishing, until I ran into Jeff Jewitt's "Spray Finishing Made Simple: A Book and Step-by-Step Companion DVD". The book was Ok but it wasn't until I watched the DVD of Jeff showing how easy it was to spray and reading the book again that I felt comfortable spraying the table.

This is not to say that this precluded the need to practice the flattening and spraying skills. It did go a long way however in taking something that appeared nearly impossible and showing just how easy it is... with practice, of course.

In all I was blessed with spending about 10 days in the shop with my son as we carefully worked our way through the process, making samples and re-making parts as necessary, but the results speak for themselves. My son and I enjoyed the process and my bride couldn't be more pleased.

I agree wholeheartedly that some learn best by reading, some by hearing and some by seeing something performed. Some truly skilled folks probably just learn best by doing but I've learned that I'm a visual learner. Each of us should be encouraged to first learn how we best learn and then apply it to developing new skills.

Back to being truly blessed.. the time I spent in the shop with my son was fabulous.. and he's started developing a love for working with wood.. After returning from the U for the summer we're out inthe shop again, building a complex wooden cube with LEDs inside, lenses imbedded in the wood, and he's built the elctronic control circuit. We'll see how it comes out but in any event working together in the shop is very wonderful time!!

I've attached a picture of my son wiping on the final coat of clear finish.

Jim

P.S. If you're interested in learning to spray, the DVD's great.. and the book's on Amazon.


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