I like my Delta dealer but $270.00 more???

[Bill Lewis]

John, not to drag this out any more than it has to be, but I have to stand up for Don on this one.

This local dealer that Don was working with touts the Amazon pricing at all of the shows for comparison. If anything, the local dealer is being a bit too faced, so take it easy on Don.

I've purchased my fair share of equipment from this dealer, but I don't adhere to the philosophy that you should support the local dealer given any cost whatsoever, just in the hopes that they'll possibly support you later on. I'm too cynical to believe that would ever happen. It just would not make good business sense to do this. Let alone good sense for a hobbiest.

As for the local dealer supporting the customers, well let me relate a story about this dealer. I bought an X5 unisaw from this dealer back in early February. I bought it at a show, and took them up on the free delivery. Well they oversold the saws at the show, and it took me almost 4 weeks to take delivery of the saw (7-10 days promised at the show), with the indication that the mobil base would be coming soon after. I still have yet to receive the mobil base for the saw. I can't assemble the saw without the base, and so here it is going on 4 months later and I still can't use the saw. I've made number of phone calls to the dealer, and they haven't exactly been clamoring to do "something" about it. They only blame Delta for the problem.

So will I buy from this dealer again? Actually, yes I probably would, but I'll not go through this again either.

[Ken Waag]

This local vs internet issue has become an interesting moral dilemma. On the one hand I do like to support the local dealers. I'm glad they're there when I need something that day or when I want a good look at something.

On the other, I often know exactly what I want, so I'm just looking for the best price. Between reputable online dealers and even ebay, It's typical to get 30 to 50% below the store price.

So I try to do some of each. If I need to look at the item, if I get good help from the sales person I'll buy local. If I just want something at the best price and I've done th research on my own I'll get it online.

More and more though I'm finding myself shifting further toward the best price and its mainly because the "good service" isn't there anymore. At most places, I know more about their tools than they do. And with so much info at your fingertips on the internet now. You can download the owner's manual for most tools. Between the mfgr's site and the sellers site (if it's a good one) you can get better help than in person.

Just my 2 cents worth (2 cents in person, absolutely free here online at the Creek)

[Dan Owen]

I posted earlier in this thread that I am a small retail business owner. I am not in the tool and hardware business, but rather the golf equipment business. Though the two products are different, the principles are the same---this is the people business. I stay in business because I sevice my customers with the best possible product for the best possible price and provide a continued follow up service. I am not ever going to get rich doing this, but I do it because I enjoy sharing my product knowledge with my customers and getting them into the best equipment that they can afford.
Over the years, I have noticed that small businesses that develop attitues usually have several problems. They are trying to make alot of money to quickly, lack basic people skills, and refuse to get creative when it comes to battling the internet or the box stores. These people need to realize that nothing is black and white in the retail world and it can be as political as your next state legislature when it comes to providing superior customer service. Most brick and mortar retailers hate the words on line or internet, but I personally accept an invitation to win a customer over with my product knowledge and educate them to the advantages of buying locally. I am a person who plays golf and sells golf equipment. I buy my tools from woodworkers who sell woodworking equipment. Their advice and experience with a partiular product is invaluable to me and in the course of the sale, I can usually negotiate some perks such as extended return policies and warranties. I never ask for a better price. If the price is reasonable, I will buy. If it is not, maybe I can't afford the item. If the price is way out of line to begin with, I already assume that this particular businnes owner is either trying to get rich quick or is way behind in his bills.
No, I dont like subsidizing the internet or becoming a half way house for internet sales and big box stores, but when these people try to take advantage of my customer service I seize the opportunity to win them over. I'll stop for now and quit rambling, but please try to buy locally when you can---if not in your community, at least in state. The retail industry is way out of balance with regards to brick and mortar versus internet businesses. Until our government balances the burdens of these two entities with regards to taxes, licenses, workmans comp etc. there will always be attitudes to deal with and a continuing seperation in relationships between wholesalers and retailers.

[John Hulett]

This local vs internet issue has become an interesting moral dilemma.

I once dated a girl back when I was young and exciting; she was really into me. I had her at my place one afternoon and I was rounding second base with home easily in site when I realized that if I went that far, she would be clingy. I wasn't that into her to begin with, and would have probably dumped her shortly after. I hesitantly decided to stop, dead in my tracks and put an end to things right then and there. She was hurt, but not so much as she would have been a week later.

That was a moral dilemma.

Saving $270 is just fiscal responsibility.

Let's suppose you were shopping for the same machine at two local shops - equal in every sense relative to taxes, customer service and price. The prices are the same, but at one, the owner was throwing in a nice new Lie-Lielsen #4 1/2 smooth plane as a bonus. Is it still a moral dilemma or just common sense?

[Donnie Raines]

I had to chuckle a little bit with your comments(not making light of it by the way).

I am a PGA member and got out of the buisness due to the lack of profit involved. I love the game and working with people, but I refused to do it simply because I enjoyed it. We work because we are trying to make money. We can discuss customer service idea's all we want(and I agree with you that customers are the key ingredient to success) but one needs to draw a line some where. I was able to pay the bills and buy a home with money I made in the golf buisness, but the future I vision for my family was not going to happen in the time frame I desired.

I supported my local tool company until the service became very poor. I did not get the rock bottom price nor did I expect to get it. But I did receive a fair price. Once the service aspect of it was gone I went else where. The buisness I am in now(insurance) is price driven. BUT, I can't tell you how many times I have written deals not becuase I had the best price, but, becuase I was interested in the client. The service goes along way as you said...no disagreement there.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I still have yet to receive the mobil base for the saw. I can't assemble the saw without the base, and so here it is going on 4 months later and I still can't use the saw. I've made number of phone calls to the dealer, and they haven't exactly been clamoring to do "something" about it. They only blame Delta for the problem.

"So will I buy from this dealer again? Actually, yes I probably would, but I'll not go through this again either"

Bill, I don't see why you want to reward that dealer with more business. They treated you wrong and you're still going back for more! Man, you must be a nice guy or just a glutten for punishment. Alan

[Ken Waag]

Let's suppose you were shopping for the same machine at two local shops - equal in every sense relative to taxes, customer service and price. The prices are the same, but at one, the owner was throwing in a nice new Lie-Lielsen #4 1/2 smooth plane as a bonus. Is it still a moral dilemma or just common sense?

John,
I would call that common sense. You've taken any moral issue out by making everything else the same.

Take this scenario:

You've always wanted a Lie-Nielson #4 1/2 plane. It's a beautiful tool and you could put it to good use. After some hard work you're able to set aside some money and just maybe you'll get that plane. You go down to the local woodworking store to look at it. The owner shows you all the adjustments. He shows you how to set it up just right. He goes and gets a piece of cherry so you can try it out to see if it works as good as it looks. It does! This is a tool you could use. How much? Price $250; with tax it going to seperate you from $275. That's a little more than you thought and a bit more than you saved. You'd have to put $50 on a credit card. Better go home a think a little.

At home you're lusting over the plane and decide to look at it online. The first place you look has it for $225. And it dawns on you no tax. Now its $50 less than at the store and equals your cash on hand. Then you see a flashing button "On Sale, can't show price. Add to cart to see actual cost". Its on sale for $205, and this site has a free shipping and $25 off orders over $200. So your net cost here is $180. A $95 difference.

You work hard for your money. So does the store owner who spent 30 min. with you. You told him earnestly you'd be back if you decide to get the plane. So what do you do. Get it cheap? Bargain with an owner who is already on a thin margin? Pay the full price at the store because seeing the tool, having it explained and getting to use it is worth $95?

Now is that a moral dilemma or common sense?

Not as titillating as rounding the bases, but still its the kind of decision a person faces when everything is not equaled. Curious to hear opinions.

[Bill Lewis]

Well Alan it must seem that way (glutton for punishment). But typically they do have the best pricing, and they are a local dealer, and they have ordered and shipped me parts before. I do partly blame them for not having the base, in that they oversold their inventory at the show. Had I known this would have happened, I would have come back with my truck to pick up the saw. However, I had no reason not to believe what I was told. I doubt they intentionally lied to me either.

Granted it'd be nice for them to do "something" for my inconvienence, but what exactly? The mobil base was a freebee item for the show only, an added incentive above what Delta was offering through their regular promotions.

So what do I ask for? What would be fair compensation that I could potentially press them for and keep a striaght face.

[Per Swenson]

Hello all, hello Ken,

This is a tough question for me as not everything applys.
For instance, within 20 miles there is no longer a woodworking store
in northern NJ. Once upon a time there were two woodworkers wharehouses,
no more. Every week I would stop in and spend a coupla dollars, for the
privledge of making the salesman laugh at my off the cuff jokes.
Yes, I have been known to buy a audience. For this reason if I coveted
a particular item the sale would be made right then and there.
At my local Home creepo, I spend massive amounts of money and every
person in that store knows me. (just that store) I know, I know,
but they will actually excuse themselves from a customer to help me.
Why? It ain't the good humour, its the roll of coffee money I dispense at will.
Do I prefer shopping on the internet? It is not about the bargins.
For me it all customer service, no service no sale.
Of course I love a deal, it makes us feel better for a while,
Just a little while.
But you do not want to be that salesperson who says to me,
as I look at the back of his head " I...... don't..... work..... in ....this .....Dept. My inevitable reaction and subsequent diatribe are not suitable here. But they are never forgotten.
Important thing, I am a business with all of the privledges provided.
This is just how I feel.
Per

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I do not try and keep the locals in business on the hope of service in the future because these days it's like shooting dice. I look for the best price cause I know exactly what I want. I'll buy off the net anytime, I have yet to get burned (knocking on wood as I speak).

[thomas prevost]

How many of us remember walking into the hardware store and buying three screws, not a package? or bringing in a whichmacallit and have the owner dissapear behind the counter to re emerge with all the right parts to rebuild it? Or ask about a drill and have the counter man name five or six other customers who had bought brand X and were satisfied with it and so and so had bought brand y and had nothing but trouble with it? Or spent and hour showing you each detail of the table saw you were thinking of buying?

Except for the very rare store, It is-- Hardware is pre packed in lots of 5,7 or 17 parts. To fix the whichmacallit, plumbing is in isle 3. The counter man probably does not know the name of a single customer he has waited on in the last 2 weeks. The saw, he reads the sales ticket to you, says look feel free to look at it and if you decided to buy it, he will order it. Parts here's an 800 number or you can use the internet.

Times have change as well as customer service. Fast turn over of low cost merchandise and high school kids behind the counter. The owner then cannot get any break on wholesale machinery because he orders one at a time. This is passed on to the customer who soon abandons loyality.

We need more old fashion hardware stores where the counterman spent 20 yrs in the trades and knows every product in the store.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I'd love to see that Thomas, but the reality is it might never happen again...at least NOT in any city. You can still find that in the country though!

[John Hulett]

You work hard for your money. So does the store owner who spent 30 min. with you. You told him earnestly you'd be back if you decide to get the plane. So what do you do. Get it cheap? Bargain with an owner who is already on a thin margin? Pay the full price at the store because seeing the tool, having it explained and getting to use it is worth $95?

Now is that a moral dilemma or common sense?

Not as titillating as rounding the bases, but still its the kind of decision a person faces when everything is not equaled. Curious to hear opinions.

Okay, Ken... now you've gone and taken my simple scenario and mucked it all up with what I would consider to be a scenario depicting "outstanding customer service." Unfortunately, I haven't really seen that kind of customer service at any of me "local" dealers.

From my home, I have a Rockler that's about a 35 minute drive, a Woodcraft that's 45-50 minutes away and Battles (the dealer I saw at the TWS Show over 4/29 - 5/1) that is about a 60 minute drive. With Rockler, it seems like when I go in there, the folks are too busy to even notice I'm there. They've helped me find stuff or tell me they don't carry a particular item, but beyond that, zilch. I only went to the Woodcraft store once, just to see what it was all about (in the first month or two of my WW'ing endeavor). Finally, I had taken a trip to Battles maybe a week before the WW show. At battles, they didn't have (out on the floor) what I was there to look at; they told me they had a shipment in a trailer out back intended for the show.

In any event, I've never been under the impression that the folks at ANY of the local shops, that they were willing or even prepared to bust out a hunk of cherry (or poplar, or any other material) for me to test out their jointers. Perhaps if that were the case, I might have been copelled to not only buy from them, but with the right amount of hands-on TLC, been willing to hold out for an 8" jointer, instead of the 6" I ended up getting from Amazon.

In short, in my (limited) WW'ing shopping experiences, the customer service you described can only be found in this posting, not in the real world. It seems that finding that kind of customer service is in the same realm of winning the lottery - in my dreams.

BTW: sorry if I provided a little TMI in my last post . Hopefully it was at least good for a chuckle.

[Ken Waag]

John,

I have to agree with you that a high level of service is becoming less and less common. Generally, if you get really good service, you're probably dealing with the owner as they seem to be the only ones who care and of course they have something at stake.

I guess our two examples represent the opposite ends of a spectrum. And that gray area in the middle is where the decisions are less obvious. I have a WC and a Rockler 10 and 20 min. away and I'm glad to have them there so I give them some business. And no their service is not great, it's fair to good. It has honestly been a long time since I've gotten the level in my example (in Woodworking) so maybe it's not real world. Although I'll bet there are a few shining examples out there somewhere.

Just as an aside, I remember when a Home Depot first opened nearby. I was so glad to have that resource handy. And they had pros in each dept. I'd go in for some electrical stuff and the guy would review the whole procedure with me, give me tips, and make sure I got the right stuff. Now, I see the employees literally avoid me (and others). They'll see a confused customer and make a u-turn. And it's really not their fault. They no little about the dept and aren't trained, so they probably get tired of the embarassement. And as competetive as it has gotten I suppose HD can't pay even one pro in a given dept.

So it's not worth the time to place blame. It is the way it is and the market is at the wheel. I see good and bad on both sides. I can empathize with the owner's who've posted here as well as those who need/want to stretch their buck. I do find myself hoping there will remain a place for good service to matter. Just like good craftsmanship, I'd hate to see it die.

FWIW, Ken

[Kevin Post]

Times have change as well as customer service. We need more old fashion hardware stores where the counterman spent 20 yrs in the trades and knows every product in the store.

If wishes were fishes...

Those days are pretty much gone. Most of the stuff we buy these days is a commodity. Service is not...

I used to manage the sales dept. at a computer store. You don't see many 'Computer' stores around anymore either. Mail-order and big box stores pretty much did them in.

Our store had a service dept. and sent people to training to keep them in the know. We did on-site service and we spent hours with people telling them about the computers we were selling. We had many loyal customers.

However, with mail-order and discounters on the scene, margins became so tight that we couldn't maintain the high level of service. After enough instances of our people spending time consulting with prospective customers only to lose the sale to a discounter, they (understandably) began to get an attitude. Ultimately, we couldn't pay the good, experienced people enough to keep them. They all became consultants charging $$$$$ an hour for their services.

• They used to pump your gas, check the oil and wash your windshield at the gas station.
• The local dairy used to deliver milk and ice cream right to your house. (Boy that was nice...)
• You could buy a whole bag of candy at the candy store on the corner for a nickel.
• You used to be able to fix your car without hooking it up to a computer.

We can all pine for the good old days but they're gone. Times change...

Look on the bright side...

The world is a smaller place. With overnight delivery and with resources like 'The Creek', Usenet, and other specialized forums it's easier to overcome the lack of local experts. You guys are the "counterman with 20 years of experience". I don't think anyone could ask for a better resource at any store, anywhere. With a computer in your house it couldn't be more convenient.

We have digital cameras so we can post pictures and ask "What is this thing and where can I get a new one?". Then... "How do I put it in?" Undoubtedly, some 'Creeker' will take out their digital camera, take a bunch of pictures and show you how to do it. I think that's amazing.

It sure would be nice if we could have all of the perks without paying a premium but that's not how things work. If it makes economic sense, the local tool guys will stay around and we'll continue patronize their businesses. Unfortunately, it seems that they're going they way of the computer store and the milkman.

-Kevin