Tired of working cold

[Christopher Morgan]

After two winters of suiting up and trying to work with freezing fingers in my unheated shop in upstate NY, I need to put my boat project on hold for a bit and start insulating. But I have some questions about how to do it (as quickly and inexpensively as I can).

The shop is a 20x20 detached post-and-beam building with a slanted, un-peaked roof. It has no ceiling, and the low wall is 8' high and the high wall is about 16'.

Here are some things I am mulling over:

1) For insulating the roof, I was thinking of putting in R-19 fiberglass bats or rolls, since the rafters are only 2x8s. My question is what to cover it with. I will be working by myself, and the thought of trying to hang sheetrock up there is not appealing. What do you think of using rigid foam insulation attached to the bottom of the rafters instead?

2) I've got a 9'-wide sliding door, which is great for moving big things in and out. Is there anything I can do to help seal its perimeter. (I was thinking of gluing some rigid insulation to it where I can, but when it is closed, you can see daylight all around.

3) The walls have horizontal 2x6 framing between the posts, 24" o.c.. My idea here was to use R-19 as well here. For the walls, I was thinking of a mixture of unpainted sheetrock and OSB. Any thoughts?

Any help would be much appreciated.

[Ray Newman]

'Dunno' if any of this will be helpful or not.

First thing that came to my mind is what type of floor does the building have? My grandparents were dairy farmers in Sullivan Co, NY, and when un-insulated concrete gets cold, it does not get warm again until Spring.

As for the insulation, I would look into and put in the maximum R rating. Energy costs are not going to decrease, and if you plan on staying there for any length of time, the additional insulation will pay for itself.

Also, do you need the 16’ high ceiling? Could you build a storage loft above and create a 8’ - 10' ceiling height?

[Thom Porterfield]

ANY insulation will make you feel warmer. If you get foil-faced batts, you can just staple them to your rafters and not cover them. Such batts usually have a pretty good flame spread rating, and unless you're concerned about appearances, you can just leave them uncovered.

I would NOT apply rigid foam insulation and not cover it with some sort of fire-resistant material (yeh, I mean drywall). That stuff is fuel, man, and will assist and abet a fire if one should occur.

The other best thing you can do is stop all those drafts. It's the exchange of warmed air in the shop with cool air outside that actually might make you feel colder than the lack of insulation. For your sliding door, investigate a compressible foam gasket weatherstrip. The stuff is made in cylinders of various diameters, some with nailing flanges attached, and provided in coils. Attach one to the door jambs and head, and to the door itself, so that when the door is closed, the insulating cylinders of foamy stuff touch.

And lastly, look at insulating your floor, as Ray suggests above.

[David G Baker]

It will cost you but spray foam is the way I would go if I could afford it.

[Dan Case LR]

Christopher, having grown up in yopur part of the country, my bones are shivering just thinking about working that cold (though I used to do it all the time).

The first thing that occurs to me is that it's always easier to heat or cool a smaller space. If you can tolerate a lower ceiling, you'd do well to drop it down (Ray's idea of a storage loft is excellent). That sliding door and it's gaps of light will cheerfully grab up every BTU of heat you generate and spit it into the atmosphere. Close up that and any other daylight sources you can find, and you'll see a definite difference.

Another thought is to enclose a workspace inside the building--I've seen this done on construction sites. It doesn't have to be a hard wall, just a framework that you can stretch heavy plastic over to provide another layer between you and the wind. Again, a smaller space will be easier to heat.

D.

[Jim Andrew]

If you don't want to build a loft, you could just hang a suspended ceiling. Put your batts on top and good to go. As for walls, why don't you frame it out with 2x4's standing vertical and put up fiberglas batts. I did that with my existing pole building. Just screwed a plate at the bottom and nailed up studs. Toe nailed them to the horizontal nailers. Had the gap outside the studs, so ran my wiring in the space outside the studs and hung sheetrock. Heats real well. Sliding doors are hard to work around, I took the old sliders down and hung overhead doors. Caught them on sale, need at least a 8' high to get the skidsteer under the header, used one 9 x8, rest 9 x 7. Read instructions, takes a while on the first one, 2nd and 3rd much easier.

[Christopher Morgan]

Thanks for all the ideas, guys. This is really helpful.

The exposed rigid insulation idea is out (thanks Thom -- no use tempting fate). Unless I put in some kind of ceiling, foil-faced fiberglass it will be.

But having some kind of ceiling would certainly make things easier in some ways. And I already have a start on one. There is an existing loft that is about 10' by 15'. If I were to expand it, I would need to think about how to access it (and to get some of the bigger things that are stored up there already back down). How do you think just having a roughly 3'x6' cutout that I could lift and shift aside would work?

As for a suspended ceiling, Jim, do you mean the kind that is made up of acoustical tiles lying in a metal grid hanging from the roof by wires? It hadn’t occurred to me that that could hold insulation. If so, that might be a pretty quick fix.

Now for the floor. Yes, it is indeed concrete – the cold and hard kind. Any ideas for improving on that without breaking the bank?

And finally, I am off to Google “compressible foam gasket weatherstrip.” If I can find something that will seal off the door, I am going to be really happy.

[Joseph Tarantino]

After two winters of suiting up and trying to work with freezing fingers in my unheated shop in upstate NY, I need to put my boat project on hold for a bit and start insulating. But I have some questions about how to do it (as quickly and inexpensively as I can).

The shop is a 20x20 detached post-and-beam building with a slanted, un-peaked roof. It has no ceiling, and the low wall is 8' high and the high wall is about 16'.

Here are some things I am mulling over:

1) For insulating the roof, I was thinking of putting in R-19 fiberglass bats or rolls, since the rafters are only 2x8s. My question is what to cover it with. I will be working by myself, and the thought of trying to hang sheetrock up there is not appealing. What do you think of using rigid foam insulation attached to the bottom of the rafters instead?

what's code in your area? in my town in lower NYS, ALL insulation must be covered by drywall, even ridgid foam.

2) I've got a 9'-wide sliding door, which is great for moving big things in and out. Is there anything I can do to help seal its perimeter. (I was thinking of gluing some rigid insulation to it where I can, but when it is closed, you can see daylight all around.

i'd try garage door bottom seal where possible.

3) The walls have horizontal 2x6 framing between the posts, 24" o.c.. My idea here was to use R-19 as well here. For the walls, I was thinking of a mixture of unpainted sheetrock and OSB. Any thoughts?

again, what's code in your area? it would be unfortunate to use a material that creates a potential problem should you decide to sell in the future. i've always found code compliance, while sometimes annoying and potentially a little more expensive, to always be worth it in the long run.
Any help would be much appreciated.

hope this helps.

[Don Jarvie]

Heres what I did and see if it would work for you.

For the walls I used R19 fiberglass and covered them with 5/8 plywood. I sanded each piece before I screwed it on. My garage was completely open so I added 2x4s across the rafters about 1/3 of the way down from the peak so the walls are 8ft then angle up along the roof to the ceiling at 13 ft. I have a softit-ridge vent cooling so I added the plastic channels from the top of the walls into the open space above the ceiling. Added R19 on top of the channels and then put R30 across the 2x4s. I strapped everything then added 3/8 inch drywall for the ceiling.

If you use a cleat you can put up the drywall yourself. Get a drywall bit for your drill, its easier to screw in the screws. I didn't bother to mud and tape it but did paint it an off white.

Its nice to have the open space in the middle so theres no worry about hitting the ceiling.

For the floor I put 2x4s flat every 24 inches and put foam insulation between. Plastic on top and 3/4 OSB on top. As Ray said the floor is where all the heat goes so its worth putting it in. I would use plywood and not OSB on the floor if I was to do it again. I got cheap and while the OSB is ok it will flake here and there. Its not the prettiest but it works.

Your probably looking at 1500.00 for everything, but being able to go out in the middle of winter and poke around its worth it.

As for the door. Look into a garage carriage door (1 half) that insultated and consider reframing the opening to fit the new door. One garage door will be 8x8 but will fit nice and tight. Make sure you have enough room to open the doors out. I have them on my shop and I have sealed them up pretty good.

Hope this helps. Don

[Bill ThompsonNM]

I'd put rigid foam between the rafters for a higher R value in your area. Then sheetrock. You can always rent a Sheetrock lift to work alone, or at this time of year might be able to
find some pro's to do it cheap for cash

[John T Barker]

I've got no ideas about insulation so of course I will put in my two cents. You haven't mentioned heat (or did I miss it) once it is insulated. I have had a shop in two locations on an old Pennsylvania ex-farm...concrete floors too. I use kerosene space heaters and I know that the first hours I can't do much in there (hand tools are to cold to handle) after turning on the heat. is there a way to heat? Is there a way to leave the heat on? Can you run hot water tubing through the floor to keep that concrete warm and the room as well. Coming in to work in a room that is 40 degrees and then turning on a space heater is much better than coming in to one that is -20...of course. My dream shop (someday) will have a heater that will keep the temp around 50 in the winter and I will boost it up a bit when I come to work (or a little before.)

[Jerome Stanek]

Yes suspended ceilings can hold batts of insulation in fact they make batts specially for that. I would use fire rated grid and panels. If you go to a commercial ceiling supplier you can get a better system and about the same cost as at a borg plus they will give you advice. I worked at one that even delivered free.

[Christopher Morgan]

I'm afraid this is what happened last year -- I thought "I need to make this shop warmer." Then I started looking into it, and it started looking like a big and expensive project. The long underwear and coveralls I already owned seemed so much simpler. So I decided to tough it out. Of course, I didn't get all that much accomplished out there until spring, though.

So how about this. If I were to break the project down into steps -- some of which I could do this winter and others which I could put off to later -- where would it make sense to start? For instance, of the following things that people have suggested, which would rank highest in terms of most comfort gained per $/hour spent on materials/installation? And are there any that need to be done together to get any benefit?

1) Insulate the rafters with foil-faced R-19.
2) Install a ceiling (framed or suspended) with insulation.
3) Insulate the walls with R-19 and cover with sheetrock/osb.
4) Install some kind of gasket around the sliding doors.
5) Put in a plywood floor with rigid insulation underneath.

Oh, and some have asked about a heat source. My options in the short term are a kerosene space heater and/or two oil-filled electric radiators. I would invest in a Dayton heater that many here have had success with, but I don't have 220 power (at least not yet -- the phenomenon in the first paragraph applies here as well).

[Don Jarvie]

Walls, rafters and Ceiling should be a priority. Heat travels up so doing those 2 will help a great deal. Next is the doors. The Borg has all kinds of weather stripping so there is something that can be used, you might have to get a bit creative. Floor can wait. You need to put a floor in to make the heat more efficient.

Unless the 2 oil heaters are right next to you there not going to do much. The fumes from kerosene aren't good for you.

I have a Dayton heater with everything insultated and its nice and toasty.

[Lee Schierer]

ANY insulation will make you feel warmer. If you get foil-faced batts, you can just staple them to your rafters and not cover them. Such batts usually have a pretty good flame spread rating, and unless you're concerned about appearances, you can just leave them uncovered.

After a few years the facing (foil or Kraft paper) will allow the insulation to sag as the staples cut into it. You can string chicken wire fencing material between the joists and anchor it with staples to provide a more permanent support for your insulation.