In this case the legs are just 3/4" thick by 3" wide. They aren't true legs like you would have for a table. So I didn't know if you were using 'normal' thickness legs or something closer to what I have in my design.
[OP]
Contributor
In this case the legs are just 3/4" thick by 3" wide. They aren't true legs like you would have for a table. So I didn't know if you were using 'normal' thickness legs or something closer to what I have in my design.
[OP]
Contributor
Your options 1 and 2 seem the same. Does your second one not have any shoulders on the top and bottom?
I'm confused about the 1/2" set back you said I would need in option 1. Is that so I don't have the mortise too close to the edge of the board? And then would the chamfer make the leg board be flush with the set back rail?
Member
Originally Posted by Steve Wurster
Option 1) The rails go through the inside faces of the verticals. The 1/2" shoulders are essential to resist the racking and they provide more glue surface. Yes, I suggest the 1/2" (or more) set away from the face to keep the mortise away from the face. For ease of construction I am NOT suggesting that you shoulder the sides of your rails. Keep the tenon the full 3/4" thickness - just shoulder the top and bottom. The chamfer would be on the end of your rail tenon if you let it run long through the vertical, or just cut your tenon flush with the face of the vertical.
Option 2) is different in that the thickness and width of the rail is set into the edge of the vertical. No shoulder. If the rail is 3" x 3/4" the mortise into the vertical edge will be 3" tall x 3/4" deep. When that joint is complete the rail face will be in the same plane as the outside edge of the vertical. This option will not be as rugged or resistant to racking as option 1, but still quite solid and far better than pocket screws. This is why I encourage you to consider using pan head or washer head screws. These through the rail face in option 2 with a glued joint will be substantial.
If this is clear as mud to you and you need more info, I can do a Sketch Up model tomorrow. If you really need the visual and you think that you are inclined to try one of these options let me know and I'll do this Sunday afternoon.
Sam
Member
Then to add to the confusion. Both of these options lend themselves to pegged joints. In fact I would encourage that, especially as you have suggested that you don't want to use screws. You could also incorporate corner glue blocks, but I am trying to make suggestions which are in keeping with your plan and description. All this would be easier if you were working with thicker stock. It is a lot easier to build rugged joints with 5/4 stock than with 3/4 stock.
Anyway, back to the pegs. I like square pegs in round holes. Make up some 1/4" +/- square x 2" or so length pegs (more than you need). ALWAYS good to try a few sample is the same stock as your finished joint to see what combo of round hole will work best with the size of the peg that you produce. You don't want to split your face wood nor do you want to have obvious round segments of hole around your seated peg. (Yes you can use dowels with glue but what's the fun in that?) Once you come up with 2 or 3 good sample results, add a bit of glue and drive your pegs in. That joint ain't ever opening up (kind'a). In option 1 drive your peg all the way through from the vertical face - through the tenon - into the vertical back edge. Option 2 the pegs are your screw substitutes. Will make for a better structure.
[OP]
Contributor
Ah, I understand your part about the chamfer on the end of the rail tenon. And yes, I would like to see a Sketchup of your options if that's not too much trouble. Thanks!
Member
The bridle joints were glued only -- no metal fasteners at all.
As for the mortise and tennons...... the tennons were at the ends of each cross-piece, and the mortises were cut into the side frames.
And yes, loose tennons or dowels could also work very well. But a point should be made here...... the effectiveness of dowel joints can be greatly affected by the quality of your dowelling jig. If yo spend $14 on the jig, you're likely to get commensurate results. But if you spend hundreds on the Dowel Maxx, you'll be amazed. (The strength of the joints is roughly equal, but the placement/
alignment differences are AMAZING.)
[OP]
Contributor
I have the JessEm doweling jig. Bought it last summer based on the review that Bill Huber had done on it previously. Used it for making what is basically a cell phone charging station with some side drawers and vertical storage for mail / iPad. The accuracy of the joints is as you stated: amazing.
Contributor
No. The mortise is 1/4" wide, and as deep as is practical.
You may need to use thicker than 3/4" stock, especially if it's a corner piece. 2x2 perhaps.
From your drawing, screws through the rails into the cross pieces seems to be your best option.
Never, under any circumstances, consume a laxative and sleeping pill, on the same night
Contributor
Another good choice would be a dowel and a bolt into the crosspiece. Use one of the "knockdown" fittings with the cylindrical nut like commercial furniture you have to assemble. With the dowel it makes a joint very resistant to racking.
Contributor
The answer depends on what you're trying to accomplish with this project. If your goal is to build an heirloom quality stand to be handed down, or if you you view this as an opportunity to practice more complicated joinery, then go with one of the furniture-quality methods described above. On the other hand, if this is basically a throw away piece after a year or two, then use pocket screws and plugs.
Scott Vroom
I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.
Contributor
If I were doing this with minimal tools, I would also choose bridle joints for the sides. Then I would notch for the front and back rails/rungs, and drill through the faces and use flush dowels to hold them in place. Personally, I don't mind round dowel pegs. For a piece like this, you will probably use a bunch of roundovers for edges anyway. Fast, strong, easy.
JR
[OP]
Contributor
JR, what do you mean by using flush dowels to hold the rungs in place? If I'm notching the side of the legs and then drilling through the face of the rung into the side of the legs, are you saying I would use knockdown style cross dowels, or am I reading that wrong?
Contributor
I mean get some long dowel rod (I cut it into pieces about 1 foot long). Glue and clamp until dry or just glue and hold the parts in place and drill matching hole. Glue in the hole (coat the walls) and tap the dowels in. Then flush cut them. You will see the end grain of the dowel on the face of the joint. Then brag about how you didn't use any screws or nails...
Last edited by J.R. Rutter; 01-22-2012 at 3:51 PM.
JR
Member
Sketches as requested: Option 1 assembled, Option 1 exploded, Option 2 exploded, Option 2 assembled. Dimensions - change to suit your needs.
Option 1 assembled.jpg Option 1.jpg Option 2.jpg Option 2 assembled.jpg
Just a few ideas. Lots of other good options suggested by other posters. Glue all joints of course. Dowels or wood pegs or screws are all good ways to strengthen the joints.
These are suggested ONLY for the 4 individual rails to verticals as seen on the front and back of your sketch. Read my first post for the construction of the rail and panel frames of what I am calling the sides, as seen in your drawing.
Last edited by Sam Murdoch; 01-22-2012 at 3:43 PM. Reason: more info
Contributor
Great sketches.
Option #2 using round dowels is what I was thinking, assuming you don't want to cut more advanced joinery.
JR
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