A Great Woodie Build Off

[David Weaver]

Most of the krenov style planes I've seen have less than an inch of iron exposed so that it can be tapped by a hammer and laterally adjusted (maybe that's the way a lot of people are building them, and not how they're supposed to be).

None of us will probably use up much of anything, we're "gentlemen woodworkers" and even at that, there are few professionals who use a hand plane for probably even an hour a day.

If I were in a boat where I'd rather build projects than planes, I would skip building any. A properly set bailey or bailey style plane will plane with just about anything in tough wood (it will certainly plane anything grown in the US easily) without giving up the finish that higher angle plane can't give (and I can buy - and have bought - everything except for the jointer for less than the price of a premium iron).

What I can't figure out is why all of the literature thrown at us does so little to describe how to properly set a bailey plane to eliminate tearout on anything regardless of the wood and regardless of planing direction.

[David Weaver]

Where is Rob Lee?

He owes us an ebony plane of some sort.

[Derek Cohen]

Nice plane David.

What about a tutorial from you on setting up a Bailey plane for interlocked grain?

I have not yet begun making my plane - still collecting the parts. When is the deadline?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Derek, I guess there is not much tutorial to be had. I've just taken what warren says to heart after seeing those study pictures about chipbreaker projection. I just couldn't quite decipher it the way warren put it, which was to plainly say that you just have to invest in the skill of setting the chipbreaker - i needed something a little more specific than that (like the specification that's provided in that study), and the study pictures provided it.

I was also too lazy to learn to quickly set the chipbreaker that precisely, and I had to suck it up and do it for a couple of weeks to get faster at it, it reminds me of shaving with a straight razor, which also was cumbersome for a few weeks but now has become very quick. I was wrong!

I am somewhat ashamed to say that the $11 millers falls plane that I'm using as a test subject will now smooth with anything in the shop (including a very heavy-ironed 55 degree infill that has an opening that is as small as practical - about 3 or 4 thousandths), as long as the chipbreaker projection is in the neighborhood of 4 thousandths of an inch. That seemed a tall order and a lot of fiddling at first, but after the last couple of weeks, setting it is quick and pretty easy, and I cannot create tearout with it no matter what - all the way until it stops cutting.

It is enough to make me completely rethink the need for high angle planes, after I admittedly championed them loudly (the infill is still a nice plane to use, but i haven't been able to find anything in my shop that it will smooth and that the millers falls plane will not).

Of course, as with any plane, the regular rules apply - the iron has to be bedded and stable, no loose screws, etc. and the chipbreaker needs to have the front edge cleaned up so that it is uniformly straight across and tidy. That's very little work given that they're not hardened.

I hope other people tight on dollars will think about trying the same thing if buying premium planes will hurt them financially.

What I have also found, unfortunately, is that most of the later wooden planes will not feed if you set the second iron correctly - they are poorly made, so something like a basic stanley 4 is probably a good target (cheap, available, and no blockage issues).

I guess I could sum the method as follows:
* get a basic stanley 3, 4 or 4 1/2 - whatever is already around, use the stock chipbreaker
* polish the back of the iron
* clean up the face of the chipbreaker so that it is uniformly straight and clean up the undercut on the bottom edge of the chipbreaker, preserving the undercut that ensures a good fit against the back of the iron (a ruler trick as charlesworth provides isn't even precluded, the undercut should be significantly steeper than the back bevel).
* open the mouth a little bit to provide feeding room
* set the chipbreaker so that you can barely see a glint of light from the edge, just the tiniest amount.

If the plane offers a little more resistance than usual in the cut (folding the shaving at the face of the chipbreaker does take some effort), but doesn't bull you and refuse to cut, then it's probably set just right.

It seems a lot of fidgeting to set the iron as close as I'm talking about at first, so that you can barely see the edge, and i'm sure a time or two the chipbreaker overshoots and mangles the edge of the iron a little bit, but like a shaving nick with a straight razor, once you get quick with it after a dozen or so times, you'll never overshoot the set again and wonk the edge.

The iron can be close to square without being dead perfect. My past habit was to set the chipbreaker so that the sides were parallel with the iron, but where it ends up is dictated by the squareness of the grind on the iron and not necessarily the perfect parallelism up its length with the iron sides. A little off is OK.

Maybe it's just another gentleman woodworker phase/fad! But it works. And it's almost free.

[David Weaver]

As far as the deadline on the woody, I'd say if SMC still exists and this thread still exists, then when you post your plane, you've still met the deadline!

[Chris Griggs]

Maybe it's just another gentleman woodworker phase/fad! But it works. And it's almost free.

Dave and I have been doing some discussing (over PM) and testing on this over the last couple of days. I pulled the hock blade out of my old stanley no 4 yesterday, set the CB so I could just see a glimmer of the back and went to town on a piece of curly maple. No tearout, both with and against the grain, no chatter from the thin later model (type 18 I think) stock blade. It really did work, and I say that as someone who has been a naysayer of CBs from the first time I picked up a plane. Derek, keep in mind that Dave and I are speaking in regards to North American hardwoods. I have no idea how this would work on your gnarly aussie stuff, and I'm not about to generalize that this is a substitute for a HA plane or scraper in all cases. The bigger take home point here is that for those who are working mostly North American hardwoods, even those with figure, that setting the CB close is something that one can do and should consider trying, before running out and buying an extra plane, extra blade, extra frog. Of course, I will never try to talk someone out of buying any of those things if they want them and have the money. But for those who want to exaust their options before making another purchase a closely set CB is worth experimenting with (assuming your plane is otherwise well tuned and your blade is SHARP). A high angle can do a lot, a tight mouth works wonders, the CB things is just another option, and if all one has is an old Bailey style plane it may be the only option on hand.

[bridger berdel]

this is probably a bit different from what most of you will post. I made this because I really needed a butt mortise plane, and I needed it quick. it 'aint beautiful. I started it with a 5/8 chisel as a cutter, which worked OK, except that it made the thing top heavy and ungainly to use. and the taper of the chisel was backwards, which meant that I had to really slam the wedge in to keep it set, which is probably why it broke. so I fixed it and used a 5/8 plough blade from a multiplane, which is where it is right now. I'll put it to work tomorrow and see how it does.Attachment 225527Attachment 225528Attachment 225529Attachment 225530

I've been using this plane a fair bit- probably mortised 20 or 30 hinges with it now. I'm still making small tweaks to the wedge. in general it's working fine. I do wonder if it would perform better at a lower cutting angle (45 degree bed, bevel down). anybody here with an iron one who could measure and comment on that?

Bridger

[Kees Heiden]

David and Chris, how do you set the CB? First move it in position and then tighten the screw? Or tighten first and then set it close to the edge with a small hamer? The latter method I learned from a local cabinet maker.

[Zach Dillinger]

As far as the deadline on the woody, I'd say if SMC still exists and this thread still exists, then when you post your plane, you've still met the deadline!

Indeed. There's no judging, so whenever you get it done.

[David Weaver]

Kees -
* move the chipbreaker close to where you'll want it to be with the screw in with no tension (that may be still a tiny sliver of shiny iron showing, but a little more than you expect ultimately)
* tension the cap iron screw enough to pull the spring out of the chipbreaker and make it flush with the iron, but don't tighten it all the way (it will creep closer to the edge, obviously) and if it's not in the right place, either move it with finger pressure from behind the hump, or tap it with a small hammer if you need to.
* When it's where you want it, tighten it the rest of the way. you'll have enough showing that you could stand a sheet of office paper on end on the iron protruding and have no more room.

If too little of the iron is left protruding, the plane will bull you around and not cut. If too much is showing, then you might have tearout (which is probably where a lot of people figure that the chipbreaker does nothing). When set right, it definitely will keep you out of trouble, and it will have a bit more resistance to pushing than it did with the chipbreaker set back far.

After you've done it a dozen or two times, you'll know how to get it really close right off the bat so that you don't need to do much or any adjustment.

There may be a much better process, that's just what I came up with. In the past, maybe it was the overshoots (and corresponding dinging up of the sharpened iron edge) that kept me away from it, i don't remember. I know I felt like it was too much screwing around, though, and in the end, it's not.

I guess that's the tendency of all of us as gentlemen woodworkers. if something doesn't work in the first 5 tries, then we call it no good. Sometimes it takes longer to learn. People are willing to do repetitions with joinery and sharpening because we have no choice, so this is a little different. But worth the effort.

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks for the info David.

Since I take Warren serious I have also played with the chipbreaker close to the edge and my humble UK build #4 works a lot better now then in the past. I'm still not quite where you though.

It's a pitty that woodies are more prone to clogging with the chipbreaker so close. Maybe there is some easy solution to that too.

[Chris Griggs]

I've been doing pretty much the same thing David describes. I did experiment with a tapping it with a a little brass mallet, but found that it was too easy to knock the CB past the cutting edge. I just get as close as I can get it and still see a nice little line of reflection (a good reason to have a polished blade back), and then tighten down. As Dave said, when I end up with the amount of back showing to be about the thickness of a piece of paper that seems about right. Closer the plane won't cut right, farther back there is less noticeable effect. I've only been messing with this for little while though so feel free to take my input with a grain of salt. Of course, none if this will do you any good if your blade isn't sharp or your CB isn't mating properly. For me the test to tell whether I got it right is to deliberately plane against the grain, and try to get the wood to tearout. If it cuts pretty smooth and doesn't tearout then I'm pretty confident that the CB is doing something.

[David Weaver]

A float or a chisel and some opening solves it. I don't know how planemakers ply their trade in terms of steps, but the last step in my coffin smoother was opening it enough to actually feed the shavings. I started it tight and then gradually opened it up.

It may be that once costs were tight, that part of the process didn't get as much attention, and if it did, I don't know how it would've unless the irons came pre-honed. Maybe they figured craftsmen would fiddle with their planes.

that's all guessing, which doesn't make for accurate history, but that's my guess.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

I still owed you a pic from the shooter with shavings. Since I'm still waiting for the new blade, the plane will get, I fetteled the vintage blade so it is nearly flat and fits quite good to the bed of the plane. Still not perfect but quite good. At least with smaller wood dimensions it works without chattering now. Here a pic of a little workpiece which was mitered on the donkey's ear at all 4 sides. The shavings are coming from this piece.

P1030572.jpg

I'm looking forward to getting the custom made blade from Gerd Fritsche. It should be able improve the performance of the plane another time.

The shooting is a joyful thing with this plane. It is gliding very smoothly and due to it's weight it has a lot of momentum. It's hard to explain but it feels good.

Klaus

[Carl Beckett]

I still owed you a pic from the shooter with shavings. Since I'm still waiting for the new blade, the plane will get, I fetteled the vintage blade so it is nearly flat and fits quite good to the bed of the plane. Still not perfect but quite good. At least with smaller wood dimensions it works without chattering now. Here a pic of a little workpiece which was mitered on the donkey's ear at all 4 sides. The shavings are coming from this piece.

P1030572.jpg

I'm looking forward to getting the custom made blade from Gerd Fritsche. It should be able improve the performance of the plane another time.

The shooting is a joyful thing with this plane. It is gliding very smoothly and due to it's weight it has a lot of momentum. It's hard to explain but it feels good.

Klaus

This plane is a true work of art. Inspirational.