Powermatic 1150 VS Drill Press Rebuild. HELP

[Van Huskey]

First, I am not sure if you will get a response from Scott via email, but you may and it may be a non-issue if you go the other way.

I haven't noticed the groove on the table mount, could be...

For the VFD I would suggest the Teco FM50 or maybe one of the Chinese drives off eBay that more and more people keep using. Now I think you may want to make a thread about switching a DP to VS using a VFD. I say this because there are a lot of things to think about especially how wide oa a range you want to use as pure VFD speed control compared to what you will do via changing belts. You are going to have to pick a motor size and then spec the drive from that. I have my own ideas as to how to do a VFD VS conversion BUT there are a lot of people that have PRACTICAL experience in doing it. I won't go into detail here since I think you should start a specific thread about the concersion so you get the most input possible. In the end you will find people who see this as a very simple process and others like myself that tend to overthink every aspect, but it is good to get ALL the opinions.

[Matt Meiser]

At Jerry's request, reposting what I posted in the other thread:

I'm assuming you've contacted Powermatic about the parts you need? If they no longer have them, you can also try Redmond Machinery, BUT, be persistent. I tried contacting them about some parts and never could get a response to email or voicemail. Someone (Van I think) said that only one person there knows what they've got.

You might also try registering over at OWWM.org/OWWM.com and see if there's someone knowledgeable on that machine. You'll probably find a manual as well, but I doubt you'll find any kind of repair manual. I've never seen anything like that for machinery.

For a table-raiser, you might check the old documentation at OWWM and see if there was ever an option. If there was you might be able to find one with a classified posting, but be prepared for sticker shock. Others have made counterweight attachments or build raisers from trailer jacks. This was one of the bigger complaints I had with a vintage drill press I owned that led me to purchase the Delta 18-900L early this year.

There's no "perfect" drill press as far as I can tell, but you've got one of the ones that's pretty darn close. Its definitely worth some work. Cool storage system by the way!

[Larry Browning]

I am going to chime in here, not so much because I know all about VFDs and how to set one up on a DP, but because I work for Baldor in Ft. Smith, AR. I am a computer business software developer and not an engineer, so I probably cannot directly answer your questions or offer too much advice. But I can find out just about anything there is to know about hooking this motor up to a VFD. I breifly talked to one of our application specialists here, he looked up the motor and said that this motor would work fine to drive your DP. He said that a 2 or even 1 HP VFD would probably drive your motor in a small DP application, since it would not be under load at startup. He also said that since that motor has Class "F" instead of "H" insulation, you might want to consider a line reactor to clean up the current between the VFD and the motor. He also said that the current coming from one of the cheaper VFDs is always "trashier" than the more expensive ones.
Again, I really don't know much about the subject, but I know lots of people who do, and if you have any questions that someone here at Baldor could answer for you I will be happy to try and get that answer for you.

[Van Huskey]

you might want to consider a line reactor to clean up the current between the VFD and the motor.

Do you know if he said line or load reactor? Although they are essentially the same piece of equipment, prior to the VFD it is a line reactor, between the VFD and motor it is a load reactor. In either event there is a pretty stiff debate about load reactors, EEs will argue about it all day, even longer if they happen to be arguing with the "shop floor"! Line reactors seem to be more universally used, mainly in applications where the incoming power is nasty.

[Alan Schaffter]

Well, since Van mentioned my name. . . .

If I can find my old thread I'll post the link. One big consideration, what do you drill and how often. Are you a tinkerer like me who will be drilling all types of wood and all types of metal? That can require a lot of belt changes and significant spindle speed range- 250 - 3000 RPM. It is not all that easy to get with a VFD. VFD's control speed by controlling the frequency of the line voltage. Some have a range of 0 Hz to 200 Hz, while some will go up to 400 Hz. But at low RPM induction motors loose Hp. Many motor manufacturers recommend against going below 20% rated RPM (345 RPM or 20% of 60 Hz = 12 Hz).

You will notice most (all?) commercial lathes that have VFD's also retain mechanical gearing, for a number of reasons- motor hp varies with RPM and so is considerably less at low speed. Motor cooling is also reduced during low RPM. Just think about what this does to a lathe motor when trying to rough a large, heavy bowl blank! With my initial gearing and VFD setting I could easily grab the spindle chuck and stall the 1.5 hp motor on my drill press.

First lets do an example with a VFD, a 1725 RPM motor, and 1:1 gearing via V-belt.

For a spindle speed of 250 RPM (typical low end RPM for cutting circles, larger Forstner bits, etc. in hardwood according to the Wood Magazine drill bit speed chart at this link), the motor will be turning at only 250 RPM, 14.4% of rated its 1725 RPM (250/1725). The VFD will therefore need to put out 14.4% of 60 Hz- only 8.7 Hz! Hmmm, 250 RPM is less than the recommended minimum for that motor. We may want to rethink that after we see what happens at the upper end.

For a typical upper end spindle RPM of 3000, the motor will need to run at 3000 RPM or 1.7 times its rated RPM of 1725. The output of the VFD will need 104 Hz. That is not too bad. Motors don't have trouble over-speeding. Cooling is actually better, but it will reduce bearing life and put out more noise.

But we need a lot more oomph at low RPM, especially if we want to drill large holes or use large Forstner bits in hardwood, or drill large 1/2" - 3/4" holes metal! So lets change the V-belt gearing to 1:3 so motor RPM is 3 X spindle RPM- 1725 RPM motor speed = 575 RPM spindle speed.

To get the spindle down to our low-end speed of 250 RPM we would need the motor to turn at 750 RPM or 43% of its 60 Hz rating (VFD at 26 Hz). Now that sounds better, well within the capability of the motor and the VFD, and low RPM HP is greatly improved. But lets see what happens at the upper end.

To turn the spindle at 3000 RPM the motor would need to spin at 9000 RPM!!!! Yikes! 520% of its rate RPM. No sweat for a universal motor like found in a router, but much faster than induction motors usually run. That sucker will be spinning like crazy. The VFD would need to put out 313 Hz! It may not even be capable of doing so, not all are.

So you can see a VFD is not the end-all, be-all. I don't recall what gearing I am using (2:3?), but I have given up a little high end RPM in favor of improved low end HP from my 1.5 HP motor.

Another thing to consider, unless you can see the VFD readout, do the math, and make a freq-RPM conversion chart you won't know what RPM your spindle is turning . . . . unless you add a tach like I did.

Am I happy with my installation? Yes, but not 100%. I removed the idler pulley and left the V-belt gearing alone but don't use it. As I said I have sacrificed some high-end RPM in favor of low end HP and convenience. Now I keep a chart handy and turn a dial to quickly change speeds all the time- something I rarely if ever did before.

VFD mounted under motor:



Idler pulley removed and replaced with an electrical box for laser and tach power supplies:





Start/Stop provides power to VFD. Red knob is speed pot, small toggle switch is run/stop.

[Larry Browning]

Do you know if he said line or load reactor? Although they are essentially the same piece of equipment, prior to the VFD it is a line reactor, between the VFD and motor it is a load reactor. In either event there is a pretty stiff debate about load reactors, EEs will argue about it all day, even longer if they happen to be arguing with the "shop floor"! Line reactors seem to be more universally used, mainly in applications where the incoming power is nasty.

He may have said prior to the VFD. I had never heard of such a thing anyway. I was surprised that he said you can run a higher HP motor on a VFD rated for a lower one. I figured that might save him some money.
It sounds to me like you should be able to help this guy find the right VFD better than me. I was mostly offering to get any data about that motor. It was built right here in Ft. Smith. I was talking to a guy today who had worked in the plant at the same time that particular motor was built (July of 1996) who said he probably was the one who assembled it.
BTW: I can also tell you that wrapping the motor in plastic on a piece of osb is exactly how it ships from our factory. So wherever he got it, it is almost a certainty that it has never been used. Also, I was told that he should re-grease the bearings before turning it on. As old as that motor is, the bearing grease will probably need to be refreshed. Not that it wouldn't run fine without doing that, it just wouldn't hurt.

[Jerry Hillenburg]

Alan, Thanks of this post. You have simplified what to me is a very complicated subject. In the post titled " Changing Drill Press to VFD. HELP " the general concenses turn in favor of repairing my DP's OEM variable speed

I have ordered used OEM parts for the repair of the OEM variable speed setup, so for my DP, VFD is a moot point unless I decide to use the VFD on my VS to get below 450 RPM sometime in the future.

I created the Changing Drill Press to VFD. HELP thread thinking that it would be more focused on VFD - not on my DP. To help others understand VFD, could you post a copy of your post on the Changing Drill Press to VFD. HELP thread?

[Kevin W Johnson]

Powermatic shows the fixed flange sheave #3719177 as available for $177.42. The internal drive shaft #3144006 says to call for availability and pricing, the belt didn't show anything, but shouldn't be hard to match up at a parts house.

[Jerry Hillenburg]

I have the DP broke down.

Need a to purchase new bearings, and belt. In the past, I have purchased bearings locally from Motion Industries but they are crazy expensive. Where can I buy good quality bearings and the belt at a fair price?

I have considered sandblasting the parts before painting - would you do that or just wire brush and sand?

I would like to get paint in a rattle spray can. Anybody know of an off the shelf paint that would match my 201 planer which is Powermatic's current color?

I may replace the 1700 RPM motor with a 1200 RPM to get below 450 RPM at the chuck. Where can I get one at a good price?

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan, Thanks of this post. You have simplified what to me is a very complicated subject. In the post titled " Changing Drill Press to VFD. HELP " the general concenses turn in favor of repairing my DP's OEM variable speed

I have ordered used OEM parts for the repair of the OEM variable speed setup, so for my DP, VFD is a moot point unless I decide to use the VFD on my VS to get below 450 RPM sometime in the future.

I created the Changing Drill Press to VFD. HELP thread thinking that it would be more focused on VFD - not on my DP. To help others understand VFD, could you post a copy of your post on the Changing Drill Press to VFD. HELP thread?

I noticed the other thread after posting, so will put a copy over there.

I doubted it would have fit so didn't offer you the Reeves drive from my Delta Lathe. I saved it just in case I wanted to reinstall it.

[Larry Browning]

I have the DP broke down.
I would like to get paint in a rattle spray can. Anybody know of an off the shelf paint that would match my 201 planer which is Powermatic's current color?

I think that most quality paint stores can match a color sample in a rattle spray can. I would try to find a paint store that specializes in auto body paint.

[Van Huskey]

He may have said prior to the VFD. I had never heard of such a thing anyway. I was surprised that he said you can run a higher HP motor on a VFD rated for a lower one. I figured that might save him some money.
It sounds to me like you should be able to help this guy find the right VFD better than me. I was mostly offering to get any data about that motor. It was built right here in Ft. Smith. I was talking to a guy today who had worked in the plant at the same time that particular motor was built (July of 1996) who said he probably was the one who assembled it.
BTW: I can also tell you that wrapping the motor in plastic on a piece of osb is exactly how it ships from our factory. So wherever he got it, it is almost a certainty that it has never been used. Also, I was told that he should re-grease the bearings before turning it on. As old as that motor is, the bearing grease will probably need to be refreshed. Not that it wouldn't run fine without doing that, it just wouldn't hurt.

Larry, I want you to understand I wasn't questioning your info, I was just curious if he was suggesting a line or load reactor because I wanted to know what the "real" experts thought! I have read lots of people (some very knowledgable) suggest using smaller VFDs in certain appplications like this one, on one hand it makes perfect sense due to the application AND even more because the single belt drivetrain Jerry was considering would never be able to load the motor to its full capacity without slippage. In reality the difference in the price of a the lower cost 1hp drives vs 3hp drives isn't that much but if someone had access to a surplus or free smaller drive it is good info to consider. Thanks for the info!

[Van Huskey]

I have the DP broke down.

Need a to purchase new bearings, and belt. I have purchased bearings locally from Motion Industries but they are crazy expensive. Where can I buy good quality bearings and the belt at a fair price?

I have considered sandblasting the parts before painting - would you do that or just wire brush and sand?

I would like to get paint in a rattle spray can. Anybody know of an off the shelf paint that would match my 201 planer which is Powermatic's current color?

I may replace the 1700 RPM motor with a 1200 RPM to get below 450 RPM at the chuck. Where can I get one at a good price?

Bearings: http://www.accuratebearing.com/ Know what you want before you call or at least have the bearing and calipers in had, but you should be able to have the number, they are great to deal with and will cater to the odd hobbists like us (OWWM folks REALLy use them) you just don't want to take too much of their time on their phone as they are a GREAT resource

Belt I would just get it locally but someone may have a good internet source

No rattle can mustard paint that I know of but many PAINT STORES can color match and put in a rattle can, but it isn't $2 a can, usually 10-12 a can, call your local paint stores.

Good luck finding a 1200rpm motor cheap new, 6 pole motors are fairly rare and usually not made at commodity prices like 2 and 4 pole motors, you might get lucky on eBay since although they aren't cheap new they have limited application so used the price can be very low.

[Kirk Poore]

For getting much of the paint off, I'd go with a knotted wire cup wheel in an angle grinder. It's always worked well for me. No suggestions on off-the-shelf paint, though I'd think you'd be able to find something close on a website someplace.

I have a PM1200 with a VFD and the Reeves drive. Frankly, I never use the speed control on the VFD. If you can get the right size Reeves pulley, it should be fine for you. Note that on the PM 1200 the front and back pulleys aren't quite the same (same size, but not the same otherwise). If the 1150 is similar, make sure you get the right pulley.

Kirk

[Myk Rian]

Ian, You are right and I have a feeling this rebuild will end up a total refurbish.

The best thing about that is you'll know the machine in and out.