Japanese saws: having trouble making straight rip cuts

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

When I try to make longer rip cuts I find the slight curve in the cut becomes a problem. I think it's there all along but too subtle to notice until 5 inches or so, and after a bit more it is a big problem. I've had this problem with both a vaughn brand pull saw and a much nicer but not high end saw from Japan Woodworker I got about a year back. Both blades are straight and have machine made impulse hardened teeth, so I suspect it is a matter of poor technique.

Any ideas? When I try and correct the problem I find the saw responds in nonintuitive ways and I get more of a dishing problem inside the cut than a correction of the problem.

I mentioned in my previous post about western saws that I was going to post about a similar problem with a Chinese bow saw - that's different. It has western style teeth and is probably a matter of setting the teeth correctly. I'll mess around with it before posting for help with that. This has me stumped, though.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I find I like to try and figure out where it's the saw, and where it's me. I try and remove myself from the equation, put a board in the vise, and pull from behind, centered on the board, not trying to follow a line, just saw. More than half of sawing accurately is starting right, and that's easy to mess up, and trying to "correct" a wrong line can invariably make things messy. I just like to make a few cuts without trying to guide the saw - maybe keeping my eyes closed, using no guiding pressure, just pulling pressure, and trying to center myself behind the saw. Make a few cuts, and see where they go. Even if the lines from these cuts don't stay parallel, if they stay straight over their length, I know the saw is cutting straight, and it's just my technique in some aspect or another. If the saw cuts continually veer to one side without me trying to guide it, the cuts aren't straight, I look at stoning a bit of the set off on the side it pulls to.

I had a Vaughan pull saw once, it was okay, but had too much set for working in dry hardwood.

If these are double sided saws, the other issue can be the cut closing up a bit, and the other side of teeth rubbing - even with a taper ground or well set saw, if you put teeth on both sides, it's going to get thicker again. For a longer rip cut, I like a single-sided saw.

These are just my experiences, and I'd let someone with more experience comment before I did something irreparable to my saw.

[Wilbur Pan]

How do you have yourself and the board set up, and how long of a rip cut are you making? That piece of information would be useful.

[David Weaver]

When you're cutting, start focusing on where you want the saw to cut about 4 or 5 inches ahead of where you are instead of where the cut currently is. If every saw does the same thing, it's probably not the saws.

At some point, you're going to find out that a western rip saw or a bow saw set up to rip is vastly superior in the woods that we use.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

I'll try as you said to just saw and see. I know I tend to tense up when trying to follow a line, and the more I notice a problem the more I get in my own way. I'll mess around with the vaughan saw before the good one - it's cheap and dull in any case. I hadn't thought about the issue of two sided saws. I think I also need a lot of simple practice. Muscle memory rather than intention focus.

Joshua, thanks for all that info!

[David Weaver]

The design of the saw in general makes it a bit tough to rip. Instead of severing the straws off and pushing them out of the way, you're cutting directly across them or against them.

Loosen up a little bit, though, look at the path where you want to saw and keep looking ahead to where you want to saw and have at it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As always, David has good advice here, Fitzhugh.

And David's point about if every saw does it, it's probably not the saws is a very keen one - that realization is what helped me learn what I needed to focus on when I was trying to learn to saw.

Just changing the location of your head in relation to the cut can help a long way.

[David Wong]

Lately, I have been practicing short rips (12" - 36"), on a project using a ryoba. I find you really have to use a light tough on the saw. There is a strong tendency to try to power through a rip cut and really pull hard on the saw. This will invariably lead you off your line. I try to maintain a light grip on the saw and let the saw follow the line. Instead of pulling harder, vary the angle of the saw to get more "bite". If I get the feeling the saw is starting to wander, I will flip the stock and attack it from the other side. This tends to cancel any wandering error. I will generally flip the stock at least every 6" or so.

It also helps to use the correct size saw to match the stock you are working on. For anything over 1" thick stock, I will use a 270mm ryoba. If you are doing long rips with a double sided ryoba, then there is less room to maneuver the saw to correct a line. This is because the set of the teeth on the opposite side restricts your movement. I find "de-weighting" the saw for a few strokes can help get me back on the line.

As with most things, practice really helps.

[John Coloccia]

Lately, I have been practicing short rips (12" - 36"), on a project using a ryoba. I find you really have to use a light tough on the saw..

That's it right there. Japanese saws really require some touch and nuance to get them to track properly. It's the difference between flying a plane and flying a helicopter. In the helicopter, there's no muscle involved....you just sort of think about where you want it to go, and you let the helicopter do the work. With a Japanese saw, you develop a feel for keeping it straight, and you just kind of mentally nudge it where you want it to go. Those suckers are thin and will cut off line if you muscle it.

Or the blade can be screwed up. You can always try a new blade, but going 6" and driving off line stinks of actively driving it offline.

[Jim Matthews]

The only way I can rip straight with a Pull saw is from below the board.

It's always pulling toward me, in any other position (curving from right to left).
My guess is that you're like me, and applying a twist in the saw. That makes one set of teeth cut first.

You're inducing set, that way.

[Stanley Covington]

I agree with David that when cutting hardwood (or harder woods) it is easier to stay on track with a Western-style push saw. In softer woods, I think the Japanese ripsaw kicks butt.

David is also right about paying close attention to where the saw needs to be a few inches ahead of the cut.

I have read that handtools hate it when we anthropomorphise them, but you may find it effective, if a bit strange, to imagine your saw as a living thing that thinks for itself and is only happy when it is cutting wood.

Don't coerce your lovely and sensitive saw to follow a line, but accompany it to the destination you have in mind. You wouldn't grab your wife by the ankle and drag her to a titty bar would you? Likewise, you can try to force a saw to go you where you want it to go without its prior consent, but the results may be shockingly ugly, even if the legal fees are less. Pay very close attention along the way to the destination you and your saw have mutually agreed upon or you might wander and part company. A lonely saw is a sad saw.

Make your body and eyeball a mechanism the saw rides as it gleefully cuts wood; every stroke exactly the same and with a minimum of force and movement.
The alignment of your eyeball/shoulder/elbow/hip is absolutely critical in making this mechanism. Imagine your hand holding the sawhandle lightly brushing your side at exactly same spot with every stroke.

Grip the saw as a fencer holds a foil: like a small bird that escapes if held too loosely, or is crushed to death if held too tightly. It sometimes helps to extend the index finger.

The most important thing is to realize that a saw cuts because it is sharp, and because it desperately wants to cut, but at its own pace, not because you are powerful and the saw's master. Give it time to do its job. If you force it, it will fight back. You just get out of the way and let it eat in peace.

Stan

[Chris Vandiver]

Ripping with any saw but especially with a Japanese rip saw, the initial kerf is all important . If your a little bit off to start(say, out of plumb)it will get progressively worse as the cut continues. Hard to make corrections with a Japanese pull saw. It will probably help to get a better saw to start with, like a Gyokucho or a Ginnokiba brand. They are reasonably inexpensive but still quite good. Practice makes perfect.

[Jack Curtis]

1. Examine the teeth on both sides for size of set. If one side is of a wider set, the saw will pull in that direction.

2. I suppose one can rip with a ryoba, but I prefer a kataba (single sided saw) so the other teeth don't interfere.

3. Forget you have an arm except for general guidance, let the saw cut for you.

4. The way to use the saw is important. Let the fulcrum be your elbow holding your forearm in a single plane horizontally. Move your upper arm back and forth, again, levering on your elbow, holding the shoulder/arm joint steady. Do not exert your pressure on the cut.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

"I have read that handtools hate it when we anthropomorphise them" HA!

I have a lot of homework to do. Reading all the responses made me realize I never properly looked at the body mechanics involved. I think I've always thought about what is going on right where the saw is cutting and never pulled my attention back to look at stance, how I line up with the board, how my arm moves, what is tense or loose, getting a smooth arc going...

I also remembered just now the time I first noticed it: I was ripping/resawing (I guess more the latter??) a 1 x 9 x 26 inch piece of ironwood for the sole of a try plane (turned out I'm too allergic to ironwood so it didn't get a separate sole). That super tough wood was driving me crazy and dulling the vaughan brand saw I had at the time. I started pulling harder, only to find it wandering. I'd forgotten ever noticing the connection but I bet that is part of it each time.

I also have not had a proper setup for sawing: I've generally sawn with the wood clamped to whatever I can clamp it to and haven't been at all methodical or consistent. I started building my bench well over a year ago, only to realize the wood I got for the top still needed to dry much more. It's a couple pieces a bit over three inches thick, finally dry a few months back but only now have I had a chance to tackle it again.

I have the wooden screw nearly complete, the top about a third planed, and finally got unstuck on the design and figured out what to do with the base. Analysis paralysis - never heard that term until a week or so ago - describes my workbench project to a "T"

Thank you for all the suggestions. Tomorrow I'll do the homework.

[Bryan Schwerer]

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At some point, you're going to find out that a western rip saw or a bow saw set up to rip is vastly superior in the woods that we use.

Been there done that. What he said.