Shapton 1000 vs Sigma 1200

[Steve Friedman]

Thanks everyone,

The Chosera 800 sounds like an awesome stone, but my reason for wanting to add a stone was to find a splash-and-go 1K stone. Even if the Chosera 800 is a better stone than the Shapton Pro 1K, it doesn't sound like it's necessarily better if I'm going to use it without soaking.

Besides Derek, I know that Wilbur is also happy with his Shaptons. For $37 (Japanese version) I'm not sure how I can go wrong.

Steve

[Tony Shea]

So if there are so many great reviews of the SP 1200 I wonder why Stu doesn't set up a kit that includes this stone instead of the 1000-6000-13000?

[Steve Friedman]

So if there are so many great reviews of the SP 1200 I wonder why Stu doesn't set up a kit that includes this stone instead of the 1000-6000-13000?

He does - sort of. When you buy either of the Sigma sets, you can get the 1200 instead of the 1000 and just pay the price difference of that stone (around $15). Actually when you order the set, there are 3 different 1K-ish options, two 6000 stone options, four diamond stone options, and four tray/base options.

Steve

[Tony Shea]

Oh I see. I never actually made it that far so missed that. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Steve Friedman]

Tony,

Just make sure to convert the currency to dollars. The price of the 1000 - 6000 - 13000 is almost 25% less than it was when I bought it less than a year ago!

Steve

[Wilbur Pan]

Besides Derek, I know that Wilbur is also happy with his Shaptons.

Yup. That doesn't mean that other brands of 1000 grit waterstones are bad.

[Stuart Tierney]

Yup. That doesn't mean that other brands of 1000 grit waterstones are bad.

Doesn't mean that the Shapton Pro #1000 is good either...

(Did that leave a mark?)

Actually, the Shapton Pro #1000 is good. Properly good. You throw some water on it, and it works and that's how it's supposed to be.

That doesn't mean it doesn't have some 'issues' of it's own, but these problems are not often encountered and can in most cases be overlooked and/or ignored without ever having them come back to haunt you.

Most stones have 'issues' of some kind, and it's a case of either dealing with them, or finding another equivalent stone that has a different set of problems that are more palatable to you. There is no 'perfect' stone out there, although some do get quite close.

What I find confusing is when stones get universally glowing reports when I know they're utter garbage. The only thing I can nail this down to is that the folks saying "this is great!" don't have a very large frame of reference by which to compare what they're using, and that reference is littered with stuff that's even worse than their new favourite.

Folks who I know have actually tried a few stones, and make the effort to tell folks about it, usually have an opinion which I generally agree with. Not always, since it's a personal thing, but never anything outlandish or difficult to comprehend.

And quite a few of them have posted in this thread...

Stu.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Stu,

Just to clarify: which issues are you referring to? I just went back to reread your posts (start here) on your testing of a wide variety of 1000 grit waterstones, and the Shapton Pros seemed to do pretty well across the board, with the exception of testing with a CPM-3V steel chisel. Which is fine by me, since I don't use CPM steel chisels, or plane blades, for that matter.

Besides that, am I missing something?

[Stuart Tierney]

Like I wrote, the 'issues' are rarely encountered so it's no surprise you've never met them.

When putting a lot of moderately hard steel (Marples Blue Chip, etc.)on the stone, say 2+ postage stamps worth, it can suffer from chronic clogging/clotting. Not your garden variety spots, you end up with a massive black smear that will NOT clear without completely removing it mechanically. Any trace left behind seems to allow a new clot to grow very quickly. Using excessive water reduces but doesn't eliminate the chance of the clot occurring. Ironically, one of these with a lot of water on it is one of the messiest stones I know of, as the crud gets flung in all directions. Harder steel doesn't tend to have the same effect.

Very hard AND abrasion steels, like the CPM there, Japanese origin HSS (because they like this stuff hard!), PM-HSS, etc. tend to skate across the stone, unless you raise a little slurry first. Hard isn't such a problem, abrasion resistant alone isn't a problem, its a combination of the two. Pretty much every stone out there will work faster with a little loose stuff rolling around. This wouldn't be noticed, except there are more than a few stones that don't need that 'help'. Interestingly, the Suehiro Gokumyo 1K stones which are infinitely harder and almost dish proof but a lot slower than the Shapton manage to actually work with these hard steels reasonably well, as do the Glass Stones.

The Shapton is 15mm thick. Nice size, light, compact. However, like the Glass Stones, the thought that these thinner stones last as long as a full 25mm stone doesn't pan out. The Shapton Pro comes out ok, and manages it against most of the 'others' in that test setup I did, but not all and not against some stones not in that test. This is not something that affects most users, but the guys sharpening a lot usually wise up after 1-2 of these things and switch to something that'll last a bit longer.

So there you go. Small, not always encountered problems, but I've run into them, and they're notable because these are things that don't affect 'other' stones. And if I have struck them, then I'm not the only one.

But really, I don't think these 'problems' are deal killers at all. For most folks reading this, the Shapton Pro 1K is a great stone, highly regarded and with good reason.

Also, these 'problems' are not the only reasons why I'm not enamoured by the Shapton Pro 1K. But the above are the ones that can't be put down to personal preferences.

So there you go.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

The loading issue is alleviated by working the water up the stone with moderately short strokes, the same type you'd use if you were attempting to use the stone surface as evenly as you possibly could. I did have the problem you describe initially, but I haven't had the same problem when flattening for several years. It's just a matter of using the stone, and it becomes pretty easy to avoid it.

I can think of only one moderately priced stone that would last as long and one that might last longer. The key to getting the maximum out of the pro, though (which is much longer than any king, bester 1000, etc would ever provide) is what substrate you affix the stone to and how you affix it.

I definitely either slurry or immediately refreshen the 1k if it's going to see muji irons. I prefer slurry, which keeps hard stones from loading. In that way, it's the identical thing you'd do with a natural stone.

Except I'd never contemplate a natural stone with the muji irons, and the $35 ezelap stones over here shred them.

Folks who use a lot of hard natural stones might prefer the shapton, just because the use schedule is a lot like natural stones, and encouraging performance from the 1k pro is a lot the same as what would be done with a natural stone that was being pushed.

In terms of overall use, I have taken off a little less than 2mm from my pro 1k in the last five years or so. 2/3rds of the things I've sharpened have probably been rubbed on it. For an average hobbyist, it's probably a two-decade stone with educated use, and maybe 5 years with overzealous lapping and disregard for using the whole surface.

[Hilton Ralphs]

What I find confusing is when stones get universally glowing reports when I know they're utter garbage.

So which are these Stu? It probably would be useful for a beginner to know what stones to avoid.

Thanks.

[Stuart Tierney]

So which are these Stu? It probably would be useful for a beginner to know what stones to avoid.

Thanks.

I'd love to write it down here, but it'd smack of favouritism and to be honest, there are very few 'bad' recommendations around here anyway. Few enough that most of them get lost and forgotten.

I'd suggest that before taking the plunge, read what's already been written here and perhaps ask about it. I probably won't say anything, but there are a lot of folks here who will and 9 times out of 10, their advice is worth following.

It's difficult for me to do much more than that. I sell stones, lots and lots of stones, and if I make a specific recommendation, there's always a risk that it'll be taken as being biased toward something I make money on. I must admit that the folks running this forum tend to 'leave things be' more often than not, and I've never been chastised for making a suggestion, which is nice. I always tend to leave specific recommendations out of anything I write, unless it's been bought up previously and all I might do is add my thoughts to an already suggested 'thing'.

Other forums, make any suggestion, and you'll get shot down very quickly. I've never been banned anywhere, but I have refused to participate at quite a few places because of the excessively heavy handed moderation.

Sorry, that's how it is. I'd like to do more, and if I had more time I would, but at the moment, all I can do is write sweet nothings around here.

Stu.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks Stu, I understand your position.

I was thinking more along the lines of the obvious 'avoid at all costs' items.

Bit like wearing white shoes, admitting you watch Glee or eating Salad.

[David Weaver]

Bit like wearing white shoes, admitting you watch Glee or eating Salad.

Oh no...they didn't export glee from here to SA, did they?

If you go with any of the stones mentioned in this thread, you're fine. If you have something local that costs a whole lot less to get, then you'll likely be fine, too.

Most of the really goofy recommendations that I've seen seem to wade around in the razor and knife forums, where there are self-appointed gurus who moderate with a heavy hand. A large percentage of the members in those forums don't sharpen anything else, and they don't do anything else mechanically with their minds and hands. Some of the stone shops who cater to those folks have run-of-the-mill stuff at very marked-up prices and they will tell you stuff like "it's proprietary" when you ask them what the abrasive or binder is in their stones. If you get to the point where you know the difference or want to know just for reasonable use (i.e., you want to know ahead of time if a stone has a magnesia binder, because it will not tolerate extended soaking), then avoid.

If you see a seller who claims their stone has no compromises, and who says conflicting things, like their stones being much harder than anything else but cutting much faster than a well known softer stone, etc. The seller is banking on you not ever having the other stones to compare. Avoid that kind of stuff.

If you see medium grit sloppy stones for $100-$150. Avoid, etc, unless something very specific is said about them. Especially if they come from a cutlery store or something selling high end knives.

Stu's joint is safe from unsupported BS. The known stuff from chef knives to go is safe, and most of the WWing retailers are safe (though they are often more expensive).

[Stuart Tierney]

Thanks Stu, I understand your position.

I was thinking more along the lines of the obvious 'avoid at all costs' items.

Bit like wearing white shoes, admitting you watch Glee or eating Salad.

Eating salad?

We chew through heaps of salad around here...

Then again, we also get some rather 'nice' dressing by the case to go with it. Dunno what's in it, but danged if it isn't just made entirely of awesome.

But we also eat all manner of much stranger stuff than mere salad around these parts. Salad is tame. Salad is safe. Salad won't kill you.

Stu.