Money in Woodworking?

[Mel Fulks]

On the roof cost compared to island thing ...I think the cabinet industry has worked against itself. In some cases they even have statistics that say you will need at least two kitchens before you need another roof. Instead of letting magazines and
television dictate styles ,such as "white","dark",why not true custom designs appropriate to the house? Islands are just a current style that will run their course and then be laughably passé. And some people who can't afford an island might buy
an enduring table.

[Tai Fu]

If the roof is bad, the house leaks and everything breaks, so it's kinda a necessity.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Okay. Life is far better if you simply choose to love what you do, whether that is production woodworking or being a roofer or managing an IT system or being an engineer or whatever.

You said, "I see no sense in doing what you love."

I've been an engineer over 25 years. I make a good living at it. It pays the bills. It buys me the tools I need to do woodworking. The wood things I sell buys me beer. I don't love my job. I love woodwork. There is a reason I do woodworking. I love to do it.

[Calvin Williams]

My first door customer was a large, successful cabinet shop that employed 50-60 people. One day, one of the founders was chatting with me and said that I should not worry about giving them the best possible doors.Instead, I should be giving them doors that the final customer writing the check would be happy with. Actually he said good enough that they actually write the check. That was an eye opener for me, because it freed me from chasing perfection and the extra material, time, and effort that it takes to get from a 90% level to a 95-100% level. I still strive to make a better product that my competitors, but having an idea of what is good enough can mean the difference between making breaking even and making a profit on any given job.

When I was in the roofing industry I didn't have a problem with this mentality at all. But, for some reason when I got into woodworking full time, I have a hard time letting things slide. I guess it's because I just don't want any call backs and haven't had one in the last 6 years.

[Calvin Williams]

You know just an idea... You can't be the only one that wants to do woodworking for a living. So instead of everyone starting their own business, since not everyone's so well versed in that, why not get together and form a company? That way the combined talent pool could benefit everyone more than if everyone just went and did their own things... Or you know, merge with other freelance/self employed woodworker...

Thanks for input but I actually do this with other guys in my area locally. I have really learned to out-source more of my work within the last year or so to speed up productivity.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

I'm retired and just starting to learn a bit about woodworking - with no interest in the business side at all. I know a couple of professional woodworkers and the one with the greatest skill ( see www.keithlogan.com ) makes, I think, the least money.

That said, it's quite obvious that there's a hidden market for the use of wood working tools that's not being met - at least, not here in sunny Alberta. In looking at the tools I need it seems that the tools best suited to high quality work are also best suited to high volume work. If I spring for a $3,200 Hammer jointer-planer that machine will eventually become someone's kijiji (craigslist) super find because it will be ten years old and have the equivelent of a week's hard use on it.

The right solution for me isn't available: it's renting time and space in someone else's fully equiped workshop and leaning on someone there for expertise as needed.

When you thiink about it, that's how people like Bach, Hayden, and Shostakovich found time and money to pursue their art - so your income comes from renting machine time and space in your shop to others, your everyday satisfaction comes from helping others learn, and your joy-in-life comes from working on beautiful furniture ( for just enough money to make your insurance payments! )

[Tai Fu]

That's why I said it might be better if everyone just pools their resources, and form a company. Then no one person have to make such a huge investment, and everyone can delegate their responsibilities to make things work, and the combined income might just be worth it. We're not talking Fortune 500 here, just 3 or 4 people could make a difference.

[Calvin Williams]

That's why I said it might be better if everyone just pools their resources, and form a company. Then no one person have to make such a huge investment, and everyone can delegate their responsibilities to make things work, and the combined income might just be worth it. We're not talking Fortune 500 here, just 3 or 4 people could make a difference.

I understand better what you mean now. Good idea! Now just getting 3 or 4 guys all on the same page will be the next challenge ;-)

[johnny means]

Tai, the problem with that idea is that only one person in the company can be the one making money. It's real basic economics, from plantations to manufacturing to service and hospitality, the money flows upward and pools at the top. Five owners only produce five times as much work, five times the revenue, split that evenly and all you have is five one man shops.

[Judson Green]

Not just that, but you get 4 or 5 woodworkers together and you've got 4 or 5 different ways of working wood. Real easy for heads to butt.

[Dennis Aspö]

The way in which (I hope) woodworking will save me money is not having to buy furniture and such in the future, to become more self sufficient.

I am not a woodworker. I am just starting out and doing this as a hobby. We just installed our kitchen in our new house and it's mostly MDF and the like, no real wood anywhere. When the time comes in a decade or two I hope to be skilled enough to build new bench tops from hardwood and also to make new doors and the like from real wood.

[Tai Fu]

5 times the revenue, work, etc. but only maybe 2 times the expense. From that perspective it's already an advantage.

[Jak Kelly]

My step-brother is a trim carpenter, in a very small community. He was located in a larger metro area for awhile, but competing against Mexican labor became very difficult (they only do the jobs most Americans will not do is an absolute lie, but we will not get into that here) it got to the point that he could not figure out how they could possibly bid at some of the prices they were submitting! So he decided to try the smaller community area. He has found some areas where the oil field company's need cabinets made, break-rooms.........they need it fast and usually are not too concerned over the price. But a lot of that work is few and far between. So he must find other things to do for income. He did find a furniture shop to display his stuff on consignment, not sure if any of you have thought about that?

[David Weaver]

On the roof cost compared to island thing ...I think the cabinet industry has worked against itself. In some cases they even have statistics that say you will need at least two kitchens before you need another roof. Instead of letting magazines and
television dictate styles ,such as "white","dark",why not true custom designs appropriate to the house? Islands are just a current style that will run their course and then be laughably passé. And some people who can't afford an island might buy
an enduring table.

I agree with this. Kitchens are "throw away" now. Almost anything that's got cabinets made in the last 40 years looks like a candidate for remodeling, the older, the more it looks like a candidate for it. If you make something disposable, people are going to want to pay a disposable price. They also don't "need" it like they need a new roof when they start finding leaks. There's plenty of time to dicker on price.

My parents have a house that was built in 1924. Whoever built it put built in flat panel cabinets in the house, and subsequent owners painted over them many times. When we moved in in 1985, we stripped all of them and stained them. They still look great, partly because they're integral to the house, and partly because the average person who sees a honey stained oak kitchen from the mid 90s with brass hardware and knows it looks out of date has no clue what to think of a kitchen that's 90 years old.

Parts of it have been sliced and diced to fit a dishwasher, and one side has a countertop that's been changed a few times, but that's it. The dry areas of the kitchen still sport their original wooden countertop.

Would anyone pay to have built-in cabinets integrally built into the house now? Probably not. They'd be worried they will want to change the kitchen in 15 years, which is a foolish idea to begin with, one that comes from easy credit and people who can be made to go whatever way the wind blows by telling them they will need something to fit in. The same type of people usually have no clue about quality, so you can't expect them to pay for quality.

[Val Kosmider]

I guess what I am so curious about is how can someone not have a problem paying a roofing company to come out and roof their house in a day for $8-$10k but doesn't want to pay a man $1700 to build a 3'x7' island that is going to take 2 days by the time you build and spray it?

For two reasons...the roof is considered a necessity; and the island can be bought "custom" at a big box store, built by the Chinese, for half as much money. The roof? Not so much.

And the "average" customer has no appreciation for the quality which you put into the island. They see four sides, a top, and some nice (stick on) finish. Your joinery, quality of materials, and hand raised finish? "Whatever".