Opinion of the Powermatic 3 or 5 hp shaper please

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies guys. Dont have time or desire to find used machine. Euro tilting sliding shapers too costly. Shop space an issue in general. Integrated castors very desirable. A write off was needed. 5hp PM 2700 was purchased online last night just before deadline from Woodcraft.

[David Kumm]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies guys. Dont have time or desire to find used machine. Euro tilting sliding shapers too costly. Shop space an issue in general. Integrated castors very desirable. A write off was needed. 5hp PM 2700 was purchased online last night just before deadline from Woodcraft.

Technically the machine needs to be delivered and set up for the 179 deduction to be taken but tell us how you like it and how it performs. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Enjoy that and work safe. If you are new to shaping please do ask as many questions as necessary. There is a real potential for danger with that much power and such large cutters in play if used incorrectly. Should serve you well!

[Mark Bolton]

I am of a different mindset on the shaper issue in that if your a small shop making mostly cabinet doors and small mouldings (not me thankfully) the imports can be a very cost effective small footprint option though they are most definitely disposable. That said, you have to buy them used, and cheap. For me personally if my options were to have three or four small (3-5hp taiwan/china) shapers or a single euro shaper and invest in multiple spindles, RPC, and so on, I would take the multiple shapers any day for the work I do. Cabinet doors don't demand a massive shaper and even while its an heirloom investment in a shop that is working for profit the bottom line is what matters. Having 3-4 dedicated shapers even with the larger footprint overall would, to me, be a better investment. Heck, a spindle for a euro can cost more than a good deal on a used hong kong phooey. Is the quality of cut the same? No. Cutter capacity? No. But if your making cabinet doors and under it makes sense to look into multiples and smaller machines that can be left in a dedicated setup with one or two open for odd runs.

I have no idea but Im guessing the OP isnt making 50 doors a week.

As I said in my other post I would never pay the premium for the PM and the write-off in no way makes it free. Buying under pressure like that is always sketchy in my opinion but its water under the bridge at this point and it sure is a pretty machine to look at.

[Mike Heidrick]

Weaver makes a business of offering quality machines with the multiple dedicated machine mentality. A difference they offer is the size tables and the steel accessories to truely dedicate their shapers to a purpose.

[Jeff Duncan]

OK Late to the party but the other guys have covered a lot of it. You should be fine with the Powermatic for a while, they're nice smaller sized machines a little easier to learn on. In reality the difference between the 3 and 5 is minimal in this case as the quill bearings in that machine are much too small to really allow you to take advantage of the 5 horses anyway. My personal recommendation is to forget about buying anything smaller than 1-1/4" cutters. Having multiple sized cutters is just not worth the hassle. Plus if/when you outgrow this machine you don't want to mess around with small cutters on a larger machine. Other than that, enjoy your new toy and hopefully you get some decent use out of it.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

Weaver makes a business of offering quality machines with the multiple dedicated machine mentality. A difference they offer is the size tables and the steel accessories to truely dedicate their shapers to a purpose.

Without a doubt, its a great package offering, but at that its a pricey package offering (hence my statement about the quantity of doors per week or per month). As with any of these considerations it all boils down to what are your business needs. A small shop making a kitchen a month or a kitchen every 2-3 months, with mixed other work, is not going to profit from the investment in a new Weaver system. My shop wouldnt by any means. I just dont make enough doors to make that dedicated machinery profitable.

A series of small shapers serves me well in that I can de-tool them from cabinet doors when the need arises and my shop built fixtures didnt cost me 2K for a weaver coping sled. When I go in to a big batch of doors I sure think it would be nice but when its hanging on the wall Im thankfull I have the cash in the bank. If I grew to a bit more doors monthly it'd be a no brainer.

[Dan Chouinard]

There is no room in my 21' x 27' shop for multiple shapers. The original question was intended to determine if the PM shaper was a decent machine or a 650 lb hunk of crap.
No one has called it crap. This is comforting. And the difference between 3 and 5 horses was $200, not enough to even think about.
The inherent danger in shaper use is a real concern for me. The local cabinetmaker that has been at it since the early 70's lost an entire finger about 5 years ago to one of his shapers. That was a bit sobering (His only advice concerning a shaper purchase was 1 1/4" spindle and dont bother with 3 horse, get at least 5). I want to know everything there is to know about shaper safety practices before I think about plugging it in. Any feedback in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

[David Kumm]

Get a powerfeeder. Shapers shouldn't be sold without them. Dave

[ian maybury]

Shapers are quite tough in my (early stages) experience to get a good handle on from books. This is often quoted as the best available (UK originating) safe/good practice guide: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spindle-Moul.../dp/0854420312

In reality it seems very much as though there's a few situations where the risk is quite subtle - stuff like working off ring fences, tenoning and the like. Meaning that there's little substitute for at minimum gaining a good intuitive understanding of what's going on in terms of forces etc in a given situation, and ideally for getting good hands on instruction from an experienced, safe and clear thinking user. Many may be experienced, but don't necessarily fall into both of the latter categories.

One basic issue is that there's a gazillion safety devices out there, but it isn't always clear what to buy when on a limited budget and with limited experience....

[Peter Quinn]

There is no room in my 21' x 27' shop for multiple shapers. The original question was intended to determine if the PM shaper was a decent machine or a 650 lb hunk of crap.
No one has called it crap. This is comforting. And the difference between 3 and 5 horses was $200, not enough to even think about.
The inherent danger in shaper use is a real concern for me. The local cabinetmaker that has been at it since the early 70's lost an entire finger about 5 years ago to one of his shapers. That was a bit sobering (His only advice concerning a shaper purchase was 1 1/4" spindle and dont bother with 3 horse, get at least 5). I want to know everything there is to know about shaper safety practices before I think about plugging it in. Any feedback in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

Always kill power to the machine physically before changing cutters. This can mean a drum switch, a knife switch, unplugging it...do not trust a magnetic starter. This is basic for any machine, but for a shaper there is a lot of cutter in play, don't want any accidental starts. Manual disconnect. Always check all setups at least twice before pressing go. Are fences aligned properly? Spin the spindle...does it spin free, is there enough clearance between it and the fences and hood? Shaper fences can be split to work like a jointer unlike most router tables that simply don't have the power to take a full height pass plus a 1/16" of extra material. The jointing pass is part of what makes a shaper a better tool than a router. You have to make sure the out feed fence will allow the work to pass, that its set parallel to the minor diameter of the cut. You don't want a workpiece particularly with a feeder pushing it hanging up on the out feed fence and getting turned sideways and pushed into the opening. DAMHIK!

Always minimize the opening between fences, keeps weird stuff from happening as much as possible. Always make sure you understand what direction your cutter is spinning, what direction your work is moving, and what is controlling the stock. In a normal counter rotation cut (cutter and work are moving in opposite directions) its very much like a router table. But a shaper with feeder is capable of being reversed, cutter can be reversed and you can run the cutter and work in the same direction...or climb cut. Its the same principle as the baseball pitching machine.....so don't do it if you don't understand it and don't ever do it free hand. I always jog my cutter on and off quickly to assure that I have in fact tightened it securely and that it is spinning in the direction I intended.

I like to use a feeder for every operation where it is feasible. This includes pattern shaping curves when possible.

When doing end grain work make certain your work cannot get sucked into the fence opening. With a router its rather fool proof...there is a bearing, the opening is small relative to most rails, hard to miss. With a shaper spinning a 4-5" cutter, you could easily do it wrong and suck in a narrow rail. So don't. Lots of ways to handle this...coping sleds, continuous fence, Aigner fence, bearings in the stack just like a router or a solid rub collar, clamp the work to a t square. What you choose is up to you, as a shaper operator a lot more of the particulars of a given set up are on you. So take a close look at each new set up and think about what path the stock will take, think about where your hands are relative to the cutters, think about the force applied by those cutters (out and backwards in a normal counter rotation cut) and how you intend to resist them. Never hand feed small parts, you cannot resist the power of a shaper like you might a router, it can suck work in and your hands with it. Work carefully and respect the basic rules and the shaper is a safe tool to use, possibly your best weapon. It can accurately dimension FF parts and leave finished edges, make doors, moldings, pattern shaping, rabbits, dados, tenons, etc. With a little thought and practice a single shaper can crank out 5 piece doors in a small shop withe relative ease. Spend time on careful set ups the first time, make gauge blocks and set up aids to get back to your settings quickly, buy good cutters of consistent diameter and change over will be a breeze. No reason for a one man shop to blow thousands on a multi shaper set up to make doors.....I did of course, but there was no reason for it!

[Justin Ludwig]

Read read and read some more on shapers. Watch videos. I'm extremely new to shapers as I've only had one for 1.5 years. As David said, get a power feeder. There's a lot of different methods for using shapers and their fences. The only thing I use my fence system for is dust collection and as a stop or cutting tenons. I reference everything off the miter slot and use outboard fences with a power feeder. Again, it depends on how you intend to use it.

This forum has a TON of great info. Just search.

[Mark Bolton]

The bottom line with safety in what seems like your situation is to allocate another 1200-1400 to a feeder and with a shop made coping sled your hands should be no where near a cutter at any point. Raising narrow panels may be an exception but can still be done safely AND fast (not having to built specific fixtures).

[Mike Cutler]

Dan

Congrat's on your new shaper. I think you're really going to like it.
PowerMatic doesn't make "hunks of crap". They never have. A lot of folks are put off by the initial price, but to each their own. They're quality machines.
The power feeder will be necessary for production. It makes everything smoother and easier, and of course safer. If you've been running your stock through a router table, you shouldn't have much trouble coming up to speed with a shaper.
It's a machine that can intimidate people. There's a lot of spinning metal exposed. Treat it with respect,keep your hands out of the area of the cutter head, and you should be on your way.
After not having run a shaper for many, many years, when I fired up the one I bought recently, I remembered why I always liked them. Personally, I think they're safer than router tables.

[Rob Damon]

Shaper cutters are expensive, so when I got my PM2700, I also ordered the 1/2" router bit spindle for it. That way I can still use some of the larger unique router bits on it on the single/small projects.