Shaper Rail/Stile Cutters

[David Kumm]

+1 ^^ this guy knows what he is talking about

Just make sure the shaper is big enough to handle both the weight and the height of the cut on the spindle. Michael's shaper is not one I would try that with. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for that link Jack, can't tell you how any times I've been told that euro tilt hoppers couldn't be done without a $12K dedicated tooling package. Wonder where he got the metal sills with the folding drainage channels and the hardware? Doesn't really link those sources that I saw?

Peter,
You can build a tilt turn window with a table saw and dado head if you have the technical knowledge of the hardware and a lot of time. I read through the blog and the author admitted that in hind site the price of the tooling did not seem that much after building the windows. He did have some rebate, slotting heads and the Euro hardware groover that made the process easier. He would have been better off to double domino or dowel the corners instead of cutting those tenons on the bandsaw.
I built my first tilt turn using the same Felder book he used and thinking the same thing that the tooling was not worth it. In our last shaper workshop we built a miniature euro double rebate door using only the rebate block shown on the left in the above picture and a hardware groover. We did dowel corners but could have done domino as well. We had a pro guy there that had been building passive house doors using dado heads and his sliding table saw. His head was spinning after he saw how easy the rebate block with the insert grooving and rounding cutters made the process.

In the blog the hardware was Roto and the water bar and sill looked like Gutmann. Some of that is available over here. There are a lot of systems and you need to have knowledge of what you need before calling any suppliers. Other wise they will lose patience and not want to sell you anything.

Joe

[Peter Quinn]

Peter,
You can build a tilt turn window with a table saw and dado head if you have the technical knowledge of the hardware and a lot of time. I read through the blog and the author admitted that in hind site the price of the tooling did not seem that much after building the windows. He did have some rebate, slotting heads and the Euro hardware groover that made the process easier. He would have been better off to double domino or dowel the corners instead of cutting those tenons on the bandsaw.
I built my first tilt turn using the same Felder book he used and thinking the same thing that the tooling was not worth it. In our last shaper workshop we built a miniature euro double rebate door using only the rebate block shown on the left in the above picture and a hardware groover. We did dowel corners but could have done domino as well. We had a pro guy there that had been building passive house doors using dado heads and his sliding table saw. His head was spinning after he saw how easy the rebate block with the insert grooving and rounding cutters made the process.

In the blog the hardware was Roto and the water bar and sill looked like Gutmann. Some of that is available over here. There are a lot of systems and you need to have knowledge of what you need before calling any suppliers. Other wise they will lose patience and not want to sell you anything.

Joe

Joe, Is there a source for the Felder book as a starting point? I can totally understand the tooling cost perspective on the number of units the gentleman in the blog was making, I would have bought the cutters at that level, I would like to make 4 to solve a specific challenge in my own home, perhaps 5 if I'm on a roll.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Peter,
You are a very skilled woodworker and can pull this off. The Felder book is no longer available but I will copy the key pages and post.
I am headed out backcountry skiing and will get back to you later with info.
In the meantime look at Functional Fenestrations website. Look up Gutmann de and look at Felders website at their new IV 78 tool set that is dowel construction.

Joe

[jack forsberg]

Joe, Is there a source for the Felder book as a starting point? I can totally understand the tooling cost perspective on the number of units the gentleman in the blog was making, I would have bought the cutters at that level, I would like to make 4 to solve a specific challenge in my own home, perhaps 5 if I'm on a roll.

here some help in the mean time while you wait for Joe.

http://mirrorfelder.cnh.at/Video/Fen...rnitur_EUS.pdf

Roto
http://www.vbhgb.com/Resource/galler...ue_1_2014x.pdf


westward used to have a guild as well and might be worth an email

http://www.westwardbuildingservices....t+turn+gearing

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, Is there a source for the Felder book as a starting point? I can totally understand the tooling cost perspective on the number of units the gentleman in the blog was making, I would have bought the cutters at that level, I would like to make 4 to solve a specific challenge in my own home, perhaps 5 if I'm on a roll.

Hi Peter,
A little tough in an Internet post to cover a lot of details. We do a 4-day workshop on Euro windows and it is really only an introduction to the system. As I said you are skilled and if you study the sections you should be able to figure out a workable solution around your tooling.
The 2 Felder systems were designed for home woodworkers who wanted to build a few windows. The old 68 system was a take off on the old German system that has been around for many years. These drawings only show a single gasket but you could easily add a wing gasket like the 78 system has.

The 68 system is best suited for double IGU and the 78 allows triple IGU with the proper spacing between panes.

The 68 system has what is known as 9mm hardware axis, 18mm sash overlap and 18mm rebate depth. This is the heart of the system and hardware is ordered according to these overlaps.

The 78 system is a simple version of newer German designs and the tooling set is an improvement over their old system and works better for smaller shapers. They have a vortex in the frame rebate to shed driving rain better. Tough to copy this with no tools. I would just leave it square.
This system has 13mm hardware axis, 18mm sash overlap and 24mm rebate depth. Concealed hardware is available here for these dimensions. In the 68 system you will be better to stick with the exposed hinges.

These are only two basic systems and better is available but lets keep it simple. I have also seen custom US window shops come up with hybrid systems to use the hardware. Usually with a lot of issues.

FFI has the 5mm X 12mm main gasket and the wing gasket shown on the 78 system. Resource Conservation has the 5X12 but not the wing gasket.

The 12mm distance of the rebate is another key dimension of the system and most hardware is based on this. There is a 4mm system that requires mortising in the strikers. Also a 11mm Italian system that is pretty rare. It is better to shoot for 12.5mm in actual construction to allow for finish. Too tight and you will have problems with the top stay.

Water bars are the problem and you will not find the listed Gutmann and Bug here in the US. FFI has 2 types that I think could be adopted. My first window I made a waterbar based on drawings in Modern Practical Joinery and modified it to work with the window.
If you get down to hardware I have software to generate a list for FFI’s stuff and could help you out if you PM me.
Roto and Seginia are in the US. GU is now in Canada. I have dealt mostly with FFI and GU.

I would suggest making one window first to work out the bugs. With limited tooling I would dowel, domino or single slot and tenon the corners. You could do square edges on exterior sash and frame and only bevel the bottom rail of the sash. That would simplify the process a lot.

Rebate heads that take groovers and rounders make this easier. GU I think, sells a eurogroover router bit. Shaper eurogroovers are $400 or so. Gary Katz in his videos shows doing this in multi passes with a router if you want a lot of work. Eurogroove goes all the way around on windows.

Hope this helps,
Joe

Felder 1 copy.jpgFelder 2 copy.jpgFelder 3 copy.jpgFelder 4 copy.jpgFelder 4 copy.jpg

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks a million to both Joe and Jack, this puts me in the right direction!

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter another method worth considering for a few windows is corrigated cope and stick. If you have a grinding service that can maintain high precision you could have knives ground for this. I know a couple shops that have done this for small custom tilt turn projects. It would be 5 or 6 profiles depending on how you configure the frame. Plus the euro groove.

One high end US maker has sophisticated knife grinding and makes all windows with corrigated cutters produced in house.
Joe

[jack forsberg]

Peter another method worth considering for a few windows is corrigated cope and stick. If you have a grinding service that can maintain high precision you could have knives ground for this. I know a couple shops that have done this for small custom tilt turn projects. It would be 5 or 6 profiles depending on how you configure the frame. Plus the euro groove.

One high end US maker has sophisticated knife grinding and makes all windows with corrigated cutters produced in house.
Joe

thats how i would do it but i would grind my own on the viel grinder