Narrowed bandsaw choices, Felder vs Minimax

[David Kumm]

I know that Centauro and ACM are located near each other but did not think they were related in any way. ACM made or makes at least two series. Felder sold the heavier in the 540,640,740 series. Centauro builds heavy saws labeled 500,600,700 etc. There can be some modifications for each private label but I have not heard there is any downward build other than the lighter ACM 400,500,600 series. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

I'm fairly certain that SCM and ACM are separate companies.

[Erik Loza]

What Dave said...

Over the years, I've had folks tell me that Minimax and Laguna saws were made in the same plant, that Agazzani made Minimax's bandsaws, and that Minimax saws were made in China. None of which are true. Part of the issue is that Italian bandsaw manufacturing companies typically have non-existent websites and to further complicate things, I think that many times, dealers themselves may not be totally informed about this sort of thing because while bandsaws might be a huge investment for you or me, they are really an just an accessory or low priority item for most machinery dealers. "It's a bandsaw and cuts wood. What else matters?", is an answer I have heard before. So, urban myths tend to create their own life.

Erik

[Cyril Thompson]

Hi Peter

The owner of the company that I have bought 3 new SCM machines from said to me last year that they are sister companies I was just going off what he told me so who knows. He also said that the Felder FB 840 that he took in part exchange was produced by ACM for Felder. After I bought the Felder It was so much trouble that Felder sent a technician out and he did confirm that it was built in Italy although he did not say by who.

[ian maybury]

There seems to be an increasingly Chinese dimension to these band saw sourcing questions, but i suspect too that the waters are considerably muddied by the Italian tradition of highly co-operative networked subcontracting.

It was made famous back in the 80s and early 90s in some management studies of the sunglass industry. There basically tends to be a top level business that owns the brand, and markets the product - they may also handle final assembly. Then a whole (typically regional) network of highly specialised often very small businesses (even mom and pop shops) that specialise in the production of a single part or group of parts on a just in time basis. The glue that holds the whole lot togther is a very highly developed sense of mutual trust and obligation - this is also the basis of their often very low costs and high levels of efficiency.

Trust and goodwill based business relationships enable minimal paperwork, rules, bureaucracy, management, shared assets, and maximise flexibility, motivation, productivity etc - all the stuff that costs big time in the hierarchical authoritarian corporate model.

It seems pretty much unarguable that the same or at least very similar parts often turn up most Italian band saws regardless of the brand. My guess is that this may be a good part of the why...

[Bill Adamsen]

My larger bandsaw is 30 +/- year old (mid 1980s) Centauro, which paint aside, looks identical to the photo of the Minimax posted by Erik. It is extremely versatile, runs daily and cuts beautifully. Though mine is one of the smaller Centauros (Steel 700 series), it is still big ... and challenging to move due to weight and height ... that can be a good thing or bad. Being slightly smaller, either the MM16 or MM20 , would be to my thinking, a pretty ideal combination. Good resaw, good blade tension. I can definitely recommend the Minimax/Centauro machines. I have no experience with the Felder machines.

[Erik Loza]

...The owner of the company that I have bought 3 new SCM machines from said to me last year that they are sister companies...

Cyril, ACM and SCM Group/Minimax have no professional partnership that I am aware of. In fact, I can guarantee it. I'm sure that SCM Group would like probably buy ACM if they could. Minimax sources the "Professional" series (S400P, S500P, etc.) from Centauro and then builds the S45N in-house, same production line as the combined machines and that sort of thing. There is lots of confusion and misinformation out there, from hobbyists as well as dealers, about the true origins of Italian (or any European, to be totally honest...) machinery and you really need to be actively in the industry to keep up to speed with all that.

There seems to be an increasingly Chinese dimension to these band saw sourcing questions... It seems pretty much unarguable that the same or at least very similar parts often turn up most Italian band saws regardless of the brand. My guess is that this may be a good part of the why...

The only Asian parts I have ever seen on any Minimax bandsaw were Korean-made wheel bearings and then Chinese-made AEG switches. Never had any issues with the bearings, just happened to notice that while I was re-installing an upper wheel once. The AEG switches, we did have issues with, then discontinued using them for that reason. AEG went to China with them, without notifying Centauro or Minimax. We actually use Eaton switches now.

I can tell you that Centauro saws are still made 100% in Italy, as is the Minimax S45N. The most expensive material cost of any machine is typically the iron castings and both Centauro and SCM have their own iron foundries, so do not have a need to go elsewhere. Still cheaper to build in-house than outsource. Typically, if a European mfr. needs to start outsourcing tings to stay competitive, it's because they don't have their own foundries and as you can imagine, buying and paying for shipping on EU-cast iron is not cheap if you can't do it yourself.

Erik

[Dustin Brown]

Well I'm more confused now than I was when I started. I appreciate all the insight and suggestions.

I was almost sold on the minimax s400p but there are a few negatives that keep me from going for it, mainly the table size. I was ready to go for a MM20 but it's just slightly above my maximum budget and I can't justify going much over my budget for something that's not perfect. Not considering what that price is and seeing that most people are still buying aftermarket fences and guides. Maybe I just have unrealistic expectations?

Since I'm in a higher price range I was going to start looking at the Laguna Italian 18HD, anyone have any experience with them?

[David Kumm]

LT 18 HD is an Italian ACM. Whatever applied to the Felder 540, applies to the 18. It is heavier than the old ACM 440 but not as heavy as the MM20. The bandsaw market is pretty mature. You are unlikely to find a model that gives you more for less cost. Save up and buy what you want and need. If you absolutely need more than you can afford new, look at used. There are bargains there that beat buying less than what you feel you need. Dave

[David Eisenhauer]

I own one of the saws you are considering and it is (and always has been) rock solid. I haven't used any of the others, so it does not matter which I have. I jumped in to echo what Mr. Kumm just said. Save up for what you want if you are just shy of the $. Considering the quality of the saws, you will keep the saw and use the devil out of it if you want to for your entire lifetime and it may as well be what you want from the get go.

[Cyril Thompson]

Erik, I think you are in a better position to know who owns who in the machinery market so I take what you say as reliable. My point of view has always been that you get what you pay for so I have always gone for the best I can afford and that is why I chose Felder. After speaking to them at a woodworking machinery show I ordered the FB 740 which I was told was manufactured in Austria and was the perfect machine for what I wanted to do (cut large timber) when it arrived It had a smaller motor than the one stated so after a visit from a technician it was exchanged for the FB 840 which when it arrived had metal filings and a Italian made screwdriver inside the base, It was poorly finished and I should have sent it back but by this time I was desperate to get sawing again so kept it. After costing me a fortune in timber I decided to exchange it for a Centauro R800 Resaw and have since purchased Minimax S600p bandsaw, I can't tell you how pleased I am with both. I have owned quite a few bandsaws in my lifetime but I can honestly say that these are the best I have had. I may have just been unlucky with my Felder bandsaws as I know a lot of people rate them but the 2 I had were complete rubbish and I was very disappointed after listening to all the bull at the machinery show about how all things Felder are produced in Austria.

Cyril

[Steve Wilde]

Erik,
Where is this photo of the curved leg? I made a bed with a similar leg on it and was wondering how to make that cut. I jointed one side straight, and then my crazy uncle put it through the table saw! Scariest thing I've ever seen done on a tablesaw!