Recommendation for a newbie?

[Scott Shepherd]

The customer is paying for your nice, expensive machines, but some people find that their customers are tighter with their pocketbooks. If you can't charge your customers enough for your services to make a $25-30,000 machine affordable, then you might opt for a $5-7,000, but less nice, one. Or, even if you are able to charge enough to make that more expensive machine affordable, some might choose instead to take the $20,000+ difference as profit this year. Or maybe it's just a bit of optimism, masochism, and/or anxiety about your financial future that sways one toward the cheaper alternative...

No risk, no reward

[Bert Kemp]

I agree I'd much rather put an extra 15 to 20k in my pocket then have a nice machine, my cheap machine will do the work and I pocket the difference but I don't make any money anyway its just for funzees with me, most the time anyway.

The customer is paying for your nice, expensive machines, but some people find that their customers are tighter with their pocketbooks. If you can't charge your customers enough for your services to make a $25-30,000 machine affordable, then you might opt for a $5-7,000, but less nice, one. Or, even if you are able to charge enough to make that more expensive machine affordable, some might choose instead to take the $20,000+ difference as profit this year. Or maybe it's just a bit of optimism, masochism, and/or anxiety about your financial future that sways one toward the cheaper alternative...

[Dave Sheldrake]

George I think he means that if you get an import Chinese laser that the laser is incapable of doing that kind of production and will end badly if you don't buy a western machine

Yup, pretty much, $60k+ jobs are great but the equipment to do that kind of work quickly and with high quality needs to be a quality machine. Chinese boxes really don't like a lot of very fine detail engraving mostly due to the rather brutal control systems and drive trains, that's before you get into the general beam quality of DC fired cheap tubes.

That kind of repeat work needs to be reliable and even though I adore my Chinese machines they do have bad days, a bad day when I'm just murdering out loads of cut parts isn't too bad but I would want to be halfway through say a 2 hour engraving job and it goes wobbly leaving me with 2 hours lost and the cost of the material to cover.

I have a feeling looking at the items the OP makes that they are going to be less than satisfied having to deal with the odd problems that Chinese boxes often have (engraving wise)

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree I'd much rather put an extra 15 to 20k in my pocket then have a nice machine,

I'd much rather the machine put an extra $20K in my pocket from additional work it can do. I've posted this many times, we do some really tiny work, and I can't recall the number, but off the top of my head, it's about $35,000 a year in work that requires very intricate detail, detail not possible with the Chinese machines. So I'll take that extra $35K a year in work because we invested in a nicer machine, but that's us. Might not be the type of work you see, do, or get to quote, but for us, it is, so it's not an option.

[Mike Null]

Bert

The kind of problem you are having today with your machine/software is a perfect example of why those of us who have production deadlines and accuracy/quality requirements buy Trotecs and the US brands. My machine is nearly 9 years old with one week of downtime. I make my living with this equipment so I'm careful what I buy.

[Bert Kemp]

Guys I don't argue the point they are better machines and they make you money. Its just everyone here is not in a position to spend big money on a machine, in fact I would say most of us are small time laser engravers and we make do with what we can afford. My personal issues are more then likely my lack of knowledge of what the software and machine are capable of , I would not blame my laser at all I'm sure it can do just about anything the others can do , its just a matter of me learning how to do it. Theres lots of things about corel I'll never understand its just to complicated a program for me , but I can use what I can get out of it and hopefully I'll learn a lot more with it. But its just me not the equipment or the software.

Bert

The kind of problem you are having today with your machine/software is a perfect example of why those of us who have production deadlines and accuracy/quality requirements buy Trotecs and the US brands. My machine is nearly 9 years old with one week of downtime. I make my living with this equipment so I'm careful what I buy.

As another example, I bought my Newing Hall several years ago for $1000. I spent $10,000 to refurbish and update it. This week alone I billed $2300 with that machine. I don't bill that much on it every week but it gives you an idea.

[Mike Null]

Bert

I perfectly well understand the appeal of Chinese machines, especially for those who are more interested in their use as hobby machines rather than production equipment. While even they may be a bit pricey for my hobby budget they would still be on my radar.

[Scott Shepherd]

Bert, I don't think anyone with a Trotec, ULS, or Epilog has said there's no place for Chinese lasers. Quite the contrary, most all of us that talk about it have said many, many times that the machines have their place. However, it's actually the opposite opinion from some. While we fully believe there is a place and use for both sets of machines, some people think that anyone that buys a mainstream laser is an idiot and wasted their money (not suggesting that's your view). Those of us who have "wasted our money" in some people's views seem to never have to post things like "I can't get this to engrave right". They post the short fallings of their machines and capabilities, and yet, those shortfalls are where some of our customers live. So items that their machines won't do, or don't do well, is where our customer requirements are. We buy machines that fill our customer requirements. What's the point of buying a machine and saying how great it is if I have to turn away work because it won't do certain things that my customers ask?

But when it's all recounted, it's recounted in a way like we're comparing apples to apples and we're not. I regularly do things below 2% power on our machine. REGULARLY. However, the Chinese machines won't do it. It's even listed in the instructions that it won't work well below 8-10%. Well, when you start putting limitations on what can and can't be done, then the machines are not the same.

There are many things that go into buying a laser and the right answer for one might be quite different than the right answer for another. Experience, budget, expectations, features, ease of use, are all things that go into buying a laser. However, some think that there is NO justification for Western Lasers and many of us are just stupid for buying them. It just gets old rehashing the same thing, when so many of us hold the point of view that both sets of machines have their places.

[Jerome Stanek]

so how much power is 2% of 75 watts to10% of 60 watts compare. Isn't that like 2 times more for the 75 watt unit.

[Bert Kemp]

Oh believe me if money was not an object I'd own an 80watt Trotec. as a hobby machine, I'm not in business I do this for fun mostly and to keep me out of trouble. I try to buy the best I can afford. I buy mostly craftsmen tools, I can afford them and I only have to buy them once. How ever the laser was a different story I messed up the first time, you all know that story, so second time around I did the best I could do which was really more then I could do and I got the rabbit based a lot on what I read here. So Far so good the machine runs fine the operator need help LOL .

Bert, I don't think anyone with a Trotec, ULS, or Epilog has said there's no place for Chinese lasers. Quite the contrary, most all of us that talk about it have said many, many times that the machines have their place. However, it's actually the opposite opinion from some. While we fully believe there is a place and use for both sets of machines, some people think that anyone that buys a mainstream laser is an idiot and wasted their money (not suggesting that's your view). Those of us who have "wasted our money" in some people's views seem to never have to post things like "I can't get this to engrave right". They post the short fallings of their machines and capabilities, and yet, those shortfalls are where some of our customers live. So items that their machines won't do, or don't do well, is where our customer requirements are. We buy machines that fill our customer requirements. What's the point of buying a machine and saying how great it is if I have to turn away work because it won't do certain things that my customers ask?

But when it's all recounted, it's recounted in a way like we're comparing apples to apples and we're not. I regularly do things below 2% power on our machine. REGULARLY. However, the Chinese machines won't do it. It's even listed in the instructions that it won't work well below 8-10%. Well, when you start putting limitations on what can and can't be done, then the machines are not the same.

There are many things that go into buying a laser and the right answer for one might be quite different than the right answer for another. Experience, budget, expectations, features, ease of use, are all things that go into buying a laser. However, some think that there is NO justification for Western Lasers and many of us are just stupid for buying them. It just gets old rehashing the same thing, when so many of us hold the point of view that both sets of machines have their places.

[Matt McCoy]

Bert

I perfectly well understand the appeal of Chinese machines, especially for those who are more interested in their use as hobby machines rather than production equipment. While even they may be a bit pricey for my hobby budget they would still be on my radar.

Good morning Mike: I think the appeal is broader to more than just the hobbyist and these machines are suitable for production work as evidenced by a some respected SMC'ers.

Academically (I'm an idiot), since China is the world's largest manufacturer and makes most things that you would find in the majority of American Homes (e.g., laptops, smart phones, HDTVs, etc.), what machines do they use to produce its products? Are these manufacturers pumping out millions of units of products with Chinese machines or are they importing them? Along the same line, does Shenhui, Weike, et al use its own machines to manufacture their lasers? Where are the guts of Epilog, Trotec, and Universal manufactured? I ask because I'm curious.

Thanks!

Bert,...some people think that anyone that buys a mainstream laser is an idiot and wasted their money...Those of us who have "wasted our money" in some people's views seem to never have to post things like "I can't get this to engrave right". They post the short fallings of their machines and capabilities...

...I regularly do things below 2% power on our machine. REGULARLY. However, the Chinese machines won't do it. It's even listed in the instructions that it won't work well below 8-10%

Maybe some, but probably not the majority. I think you've laid out your case just fine and have expressed that you cannot meet the needs of your customers with anything less than what you have purchased. However, consider two things:

1) You are a job shop that must be flexible and produces a large volume of pieces at a relatively low price point per piece (relatively) and as fast as possible. Not everyone that is a member here has the same business model. For instance, The OP stated in his first post "...I'd like to get a machine that is of good quality, but I don't need anything that is overly expensive." He indicated the size, material, the quantity he produces, and that he has extensive experience with CNC. A quick Google tells me that he currently needs to produce ~1.6 pieces a day. In my opinion, he does not need a western machine -- yet.

2) Why didn't you purchase a Speedy 400 or a 120 W tube? My guess would be that it is either overkill or it was outside the budget, or both. You carefully and thoughtfully selected the right tool for the job.

It's my impression that all machines have their idiosyncrasies and I notice that there are plenty of help-me posts for western machines. Just for grins, I entered the search terms below followed by "problems" in the SMC Google bar which returned the following number of posts. Here are the highly unscientific results, but maybe interesting just for a different perspective.

Universal - 3,460
Epilog - 2,880
Trotec - 2,170
Weike - 341
Shenhui - 1,620
Rabbit - 1,280
FSL - 169

I often see posted that Chinese machines cannot engrave below 8-10% power. While I won't dispute that is the case for some, I would like to share that I have a Chinese machine and engrave cork at 100 speed and 1% power. So, I'm wondering if folks that post that have experience with this or are repeating what they have read here.

Thanks Scott!

[Mike Null]

Matt

Rodney Gold swears by his Chinese machines but he has 6 of them and people who can repair them. Even he has said if he had only one it would not be a Chinese machine. (I think I am paraphrasing him correctly)

Let's all go out an buy an FSL--right Bert??

[Bert Kemp]

Let me get the coffee out of my nose before I answer that Mike.
OK OK yes lets do that as you can see theres only 169 cry's for help on the fsl so they got to be good, oh oh wait a Min theres only 169 made

Matt

Rodney Gold swears by his Chinese machines but he has 6 of them and people who can repair them. Even he has said if he had only one it would not be a Chinese machine. (I think I am paraphrasing him correctly)

Let's all go out an buy an FSL--right Bert??

[Keith Outten]

If your doing commercial work and only own one laser engraver it better be a reliable machine. You only have to be late once to lose a good customer and often a substantial percentage of your annual income.

I've seen a large number of people here who purchased lower quality machines to use at home just for fun and later found themselves doing jobs for commercial customers with serious deadlines. Panic is the best way I know to describe what happens when your machine fails, you don't have a backup laser, and you suddenly realize that you are going to be late. If you sign a contract to deliver a job on a specific date and can't deliver you can be in serious trouble. If you don't have a business license and insurance you can also find yourself in a very uncomfortable position or worse lose your home, savings, etc.

[Bill George]

Gee, and as to the numbers posted above you'd think the Chinese made machines had far less troubles or questions anyway than the Western. Or maybe there are more Western made machines than Chinese?