Hammer K3 OR SawStop ICS

[Ray Newman]

At one time, I seriously considered a Hammer K3 as a replacement for my Uni-saw. I looked on the Hammer web site and noted the footprint and how much space is needed for the various sized sliders. After a while I started to run out room when I was trying to reconfigure the shop to accommodate a Hammer slider. Great saws, but they do need to room.

Advise you to carefully consider exactly how much space you have and -- if required -- how much space you are willing to give up. Might be an idea to make a scale drawing of the shop space available along with cardboard cut outs of the current machines and the Hammer you desire. Move things around and see if there is enough room. Might give you a better perspective as to what is needed?? As an aside, at one time I had the small Excaliber slider mounted on the Uni-saw. Took it off as it just consumed too much space.

Righty now I am still serious looking for a replacement to the Uni-saw. Seems as if for various and sundry reasons, the Saw Stop ICS will be my choice.

[Anthony Pearce]

Don't mean to hijack the thread I'm currently in the process of making the same decision. In all of felders promo videos they say the saw was set up and aligned before shipment. I know it can be bumpy but how far out of alignment will it while being shipped?

[Joe Jensen]

I went from a Sawstop ICS to a Felder slider. I can't believe how amazing it is to cut perfect 90 degree cuts on sheet goods. When I had the Sawstop I tried a Festool track saw but it was a bitch getting perfect 90 cuts. I just put new trim around all the doors in the house and with a couple of the bedrooms I had to taper cut some of the trim to fit against a side wall. Simple task to clamp the stock to the slider and trim it. The only downside to the slider for me is space. I have a 10 ft slide and it's constantly in the way. Before the slider I had all machines stationary in the shop. When I added the slider I had to make a couple of machines mobile and that's a pain. Also, the Sawstop ICS was dialed in PERFECTLY right off the crate. I mean PERFECT. The Felder was perfect except it ships with the slider separate and you have to align it side to side. Felder ships it set to about .010"-.015" above the cast iron top. I spent time getting mine to .005"-.008". In hind sight that was a waste of time and unnecessary.

[Dan Schmidt]

Thanks for the replies all. Ray, I too have been struggling with the idea of giving up more shop space. Attached is view of my 31' x 23' shop showing my current contractor saw and a 207" x 132" footprint of what a slider might require. Clearly, even with my current saw, I wield large 4x8 sheets in and out of it so I need to leave room in front, back, and left of saw. I have a 32" rip fence now, so I need to go wider on the right anyway. Currently my jointer sits to the right of my saw, so I'd definitely need to find a new home for it. What do you think, am I crazy to give up this space?
Shop.jpg

[Sean Tracey]

How does a slider take up more room ripping a 4x8 sheet of plywood than a table saw doing the same thing?

[Dan Schmidt]

I wondered the same thing. From what I can tell, the unit I'm looking at would be able to slide the sheet 6" past the blade. Other than that, you have sliding unit and outrigger that stay in place permanently. Imagine a 4x8 sheet lengthwise, and another one widthwise permanently attached to your saw.

[Joe Jensen]

How does a slider take up more room ripping a 4x8 sheet of plywood than a table saw doing the same thing?

The slider does not take more room when ripping a 4 by 8 sheet. But when you are not ripping a 4 by 8 sheet a cabinet saw has a much smaller footprint and there is no slider just sitting there in the way. If you want to simulate what it's like to have a slider in the shop, clamp a 2 by 12 the length of the slider to the left edge of your cabinet saw and then put another 4 foot (or 5 foot) board perpendicular to simulate the outrigger. Yes you can take the outrigger on and off but that takes time too. Don't get me wrong, I will never go back but the slider is in the way in a 3 car garage shop.

[Rod Sheridan]

How does a slider take up more room ripping a 4x8 sheet of plywood than a table saw doing the same thing?

It doesn't.

My 4 foot slider takes up the same space as my cabinet saw did.

The outrigger clips on in a minute without tools, supports a sheet of plywood for crosscutting, or crosscut a dining room table top, then take the outrigger off and put it back on the wall.

Go for the slider...........Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

I wondered the same thing. From what I can tell, the unit I'm looking at would be able to slide the sheet 6" past the blade. Other than that, you have sliding unit and outrigger that stay in place permanently. Imagine a 4x8 sheet lengthwise, and another one widthwise permanently attached to your saw.

Dan, most of the time the outrigger is on the wall in my shop. I only put it on when I need it......Rod.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Dan,

Sliders do not "occupy" much more space, but it requires "clearance".
Mine is 78 inches, which protrudes only about 1 foot fore and aft of the saw. It was more compact than I thought.

For the slider saws, I think fore and aft are not that much of an issue because you need the clearance anyway regardless of the type of the saws.

What would be more occupying is actually the outrigger, specifically the long crosscut fence that come with it.
Yes, you can easily attach and detach it, but I'm sure that you will find the outrigger so useful (and love it), you keep it always attached.

Looking at your drawing, I don't see a problem. Mine space is smaller.

[Jim Becker]

'Late to the party, but I have ZERO regrets in moving to a sliding table saw a number of years ago. Yes, there's a bit of a learning curve since you do some things differently, but it's been a pleasure to have in my shop. I never edge joint at my J/P because of the slider, too. Once a board is flat and at proper thickness, you can get a perfectly straight and glue ready edge merely by clamping the board to the wagon and making the cut. Rarely are my hands/fingers near the blade, too.

As an aside, the 70" sliding table on the saw you are considering is a bit short if you want to use the wagon for ripping or with full size sheet goods. Mine is 8'6" and I wouldn't want it any smaller. That said, the longer the sliding table capacity, the larger the space you need to fit it in your shop and use it. Mine requires 19' for the full throw of the slider as an example.

[Ray Newman]

Dan Schmidt: Susumu Mori said it best about outrigger space/clearance and taking the slider/outrigger on and off. A few times I removed/replaced the Excaliber, and that was royal PITA as it was a cumbersome, time consuming task. Have no idea how easy or quickly it would be with the various Hammers. But the Little Voice in my head would probably say "Leave it on."

Based upon your shop layout drawing, also agree with his opinion of not seeing a problem as to space/clearance. Looks like you have enough clearance to stand behind the work and easily move the slider/outrigger forward. Only you can decide if it will be workable for you when cutting a 4x8' sheet. Our shops are 'bout the same size -- mine is 24x 30'. I loose space for wheelchair clearance and my reloading bench and reloading-related storage cabinets.

As for cutting down sheet goods, I now utilize a Fe$tool track saw and no complaints about the quality or accuracy of the cut with it.

[Brian Hood]

With respect to rips and working near the blade in general, I use the 8" rule. No part of me gets closer than that, ever. Sliders have a great feature in the t-slots when you make sliding clamps for them, sometimes I work so small I'll make a disposable clamp by positioning a block of wood the same thickness as the work set a few inches away, then use another length of scrap to bridge from the block to the work and set the clamp on the bridge to press down on the work and the block. Then you can cut right through that hold-down block as it hold the work in place.

Another idea would be to get a parallel fence, like this one:
http://www.lambtoolworks.com/products.html
(I have his square and it's one of my favorite tools as it will square the miter fence to the saw in a few seconds to about .002 in 24").

I have the Hammer combo machine because my 12' x 24' shop is too small for more than one woodworking machine. Now I have a nice roomy shop with a hammer slider, a 12" joiner, and a 12" thickness planer. Also a 3hp router that pops out of the table when needed. The critical hand wheels have indicators in .001".

A warning about used Hammers. 20 years ago Hammer/Felder was still working out the bugs with the miter fence, rip fence, and documentation. I threw out both fences and have a Delta Unifence and an Excaliber miter gauge. The newer ones are fine and it may be worth the 50% discount, it was for me, but just be aware of what you are getting into.
Like they say, I'll never go back to a no-slider saw. It would just be so frustrating.

[James Zhu]

A slider introduces ripping issues that simply don't exist with a flat tablesaw. As Jim mentions, there are special ripping scenarios where a slider is a better machine, but in my experience ... the one he illustrates is about the only one.

I just do not see any ripping issue slider introduces that does not exist on traditional table saw.

On slider, you could do ripping on sliding table like Jim said. For small piece, you could use such Fritz and Franz jig (http://www.martin-usa.com/products/f...e-saw-comfort/, you can DIY) on sliding table. And Aigner rip fence vectral http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US...e-Vectral.html makes ripping on right side of the blade so much safer and quicker.

Euro slider is simply better than any traditional cabinet saw.

[Rich Riddle]

Two issues (probably more) ... First, to my knowledge there is no such thing as a zero clearance insert between the slide table and blade on a slider. Making one for a tables saw is trivial. Second ... the sliding table is ~ 3 thousandths higher than the saw top (as recommended by most manufacturers). That cocks any stock wide enough to extend far enough beyond the blade (and especially narrow stock) to ride on the slider when ripping. The table saw is perfectly flat and square.

I have asked and none of my friends that have sliders have that as the "go to tool" for ripping (if another option exists), and especially not ripping narrow strips. I was at a friends shop using his edgebander last week and commented about the "sawtooth" on his Robland's slide table ... the answer? "Cutting thin strips, it is amazing how much that 350mm blade flexes when bound and jammed by a strip!"

Perhaps or apparently your experience is different.

Bill,

I agree with what you said about ripping very long boards on a slider with a short stroke. I do have a backup table saw for that but rarely rip any long boards. That might just be me. For sheet goods, I went to the track saw long ago. I'm far more accurate with that than a full sheet on a traditional table saw.

I disagree on cutting narrow strips and think this is where the slider excels. Cutting short narrow strips does present a problem since there are no zero clearance devises but typically I am not cutting both narrow and short strips. For narrow strips, I simply cut the narrow side to the right side of the blade, not the left. The Hammer system allows you to slide back the fence system behind the blade.