New to woodturning and wondering about dust collection

[Brice Rogers]

I have been following with interest various discussions on dust collection. I basically started with a box fan blowing particles away from me and turned on the "whole house" shop exhaust fan. Then I added an N95 dust mask if I'm sanding. Then I bought a 1 HP Harbor Fright Dustcollector for $15 at a garage sale. That is when I felll into the vortex. The single stage dust collectors work fine for dust but aren't meant for curls of wood. So I made a Thien baffle separator. (BTW, Even a garbage can separator with a couple of 90's will separate out the big chunks and "brillo pads" of shavings). But the Thien baffle works very well and I am venting the really fine stuff outside. Then I bought a 2 HP HF DC at one of their sales. It may not be as powerful as the Griz, but on sale it costs around $180 so there is good value per buck. I am thinking about adding a hanging box fan with a disposable filter. When I looked at the 3M Filtrete filters, I was surprised to see that they filter out particles from 0.3 to 1.0 micron. They seem to do much better than the fiberglass types. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microp...ormance_rating . So, that is my next investment.

A box fan blowing the dust away from you will move more air than a shop vac, even one from Festool. A box fan with a filter on it will pick up a lot of the chunks floating in the air, but I am not sure those filters are fine enough to remove the very fine dust particles that stick in your lungs. If you make a hood to go over your lathe, and put a box fan with a filter on it in the back of the hood, that will remove most of the dust. If there isn't a hood, then lots of dust escapes. I have a couple of clips up on You Tube about my sanding hood and dust collectors. Type in robo hippy

robo hippy

[George Courson]

I'm actually in the process of building a separator and dust filter. I was looking around on the web for 1micron filters but they were way over my budget. I ended up getting a number from a company in Canada that makes commercial dust filters for wood shops and got the number for their supplier for the material they use.
I got a blower from a friend, how much air it moves is an un-known factor. But it has a 6" intake hose on it. It’s a blower for a laser-cutting machine with a large bed.
Anyway, I’ll be using a cardboard barrel that’s 18”W x 18”D inside, to build the separator.
Tophat Filter for 6 inch intake-exaust.png
Today, I was able to get 2 meters of 6” flex hose to use to connect everything and yesterday I had the wood cut to build most of the box for the dust filter.
SAM_0364.JPG
I was able to get the parts for the filter box cut at a local shop with one of the giant full sheet table saws. Got the parts all lined up to make sure everything is cut evenly. It needs to be air-tight....
SAM_0361.JPGSAM_0362.JPG
I’ll be cutting the filter trays on my friends’ laser, so that the filter will be pleated, providing 278” of filtering surface. I’ll be making 4 filter trays between the separator and the blower, so that the air is clean before entering the blower.
I acquired just over 6_sq. yards of the material from the supplier and the trays will have 1 layer at the intake, then 2, 3, and 4 layers of the cloth in the final tray. (As per the instructions by the guy at the place I got the cloth.)
Filter unit.pngFilter Layout.png

I know it won’t suck the chips as I turn, but with the Jet 1221 being reversible, I’ll be able to sand with the dust going in the direction of the hood I’ll be building to sit behind the bed. The 2nd drawing has a square with circles in it that i plan to put in to disperse the airflow evenly into the first filter.

[Brice Rogers]

George, it appears that you are making a Thien baffle also. I'm pleased with mine.

If you have the capability to exhaust outside, you'll end up with less dust in your shop and zero maintenance on a filter. Plus you won't get any pressure drop across a non-existent filter. ;-)

[Bob Bouis]

If you vent outside it'll remove the dust, but you will eventually suffocate after all the air is sucked out of your shop. At 600 CFM that should take about 5 minutes for a typical garage!

If you're concerned about the health aspects of wood dust, I'd encourage you to read up on it from sources outside the wood forum loop. From my own reading, it seems that by far the biggest danger of wood dust is sensitization -- i.e., allergies/asthma -- and congestion. Some studies showed a correlation between occupational exposure to wood dust and fibrosis/lung cancer, but it was always a very modest increase in risk. Much smaller than, say, being male versus being female and thousands of times smaller than smoking.

There seems to be little if any evidence that really fine wood dust is particularly dangerous, that it causes lung cancer or fibrosis, etc., like everyone here seems to think it does. There's a small risk of nasal cancer with some woods, at least there was one observed among people who worked at furniture plants in the '60s. Charred meat is a carcinogen, too. Brass ferules on your tools also. Government regulations cover the total mass of dust suspended in the air rather than the particle size. Based on what I've read, you'd be far better off getting a "marginal" system with a 5 micron filter bag now than you would going without while saving up for one of those super duper 5hp submicron systems with 7" piping. But that's just my take on it.

[George Courson]

Actually, I'll be redirecting the exhaust air to cool the blower motor. I live in Peru and the power here is 60Hz, but the fan is for 50Hz. Also, my workshop is in my living-room. There is no venting to the outside.
SAM_0352.jpg
I've got the other panel/shelf up with the other gouges now. it's all going to get moved when I extend the bed on the Jet.
This is the old lathe....
SAM_0290-2.jpg

[Brice Rogers]

George,
I have a Harbor Freight 2 HP dust collector and the motor has a fan inside so it is self cooling. Perhaps your motor may be different.
With respect to 50/60 hz issues. I always thought that if a motor had an internal fan blades for cooling that running at higher RPMs would make a synchronous motor run faster and would provide additional cooling. I am familiar with 60 hz. motors potentially having overheating issues when running at 50 hz.
But having said that, I think that you are going in the right direction. If you closely follow the available data on the Thien baffle, it should work well for you.

Actually, I'll be redirecting the exhaust air to cool the blower motor. I live in Peru and the power here is 60Hz, but the fan is for 50Hz. Also, my workshop is in my living-room. There is no venting to the outside.
SAM_0352.jpg
I've got the other panel/shelf up with the other gouges now. it's all going to get moved when I extend the bed on the Jet.
This is the old lathe....
SAM_0290-2.jpg

[Ron Rutter]

Bob. I would respectfully suggest that you do a lot of research. You have a lot to learn.

[Brice Rogers]

Bob, My shop is about 9000 s.f., so I won't explode into a vacuum for at least 15 minutes. I have some roll up doors that leak so maybe I won't get "bug-eyed" for an hour or so. Ha ha.

I wish that my D.C. drew such a strong vacuum as I would use it with a vacuum chuck.

If you vent outside it'll remove the dust, but you will eventually suffocate after all the air is sucked out of your shop. At 600 CFM that should take about 5 minutes for a typical garage!

[paul cottingham]

If you vent outside it'll remove the dust, but you will eventually suffocate after all the air is sucked out of your shop. At 600 CFM that should take about 5 minutes for a typical garage!

If you're concerned about the health aspects of wood dust, I'd encourage you to read up on it from sources outside the wood forum loop. From my own reading, it seems that by far the biggest danger of wood dust is sensitization -- i.e., allergies/asthma -- and congestion. Some studies showed a correlation between occupational exposure to wood dust and fibrosis/lung cancer, but it was always a very modest increase in risk. Much smaller than, say, being male versus being female and thousands of times smaller than smoking.

There seems to be little if any evidence that really fine wood dust is particularly dangerous, that it causes lung cancer or fibrosis, etc., like everyone here seems to think it does. There's a small risk of nasal cancer with some woods, at least there was one observed among people who worked at furniture plants in the '60s. Charred meat is a carcinogen, too. Brass ferules on your tools also. Government regulations cover the total mass of dust suspended in the air rather than the particle size. Based on what I've read, you'd be far better off getting a "marginal" system with a 5 micron filter bag now than you would going without while saving up for one of those super duper 5hp submicron systems with 7" piping. But that's just my take on it.

Bob, I would respectfully suggest that you do much more research. Cause you really don't know what you are talking about. Respectfully.

[Bob Bouis]

I certainly do have a lot to learn, but on this subject I've done quite a bit of reading and am fairly confident in my conclusions. Like I said, I encourage you to do the same. Don't take my word for it. But here's what I gathered from reading occupational safety publications and surveys of scientific studies:

1) The evidence linking wood dust and lung cancer / fibrosis / decreased lung function is very tenuous and the subject does not appear to have been very heavily studied. All of the studies seem to have been on people who are occupationally exposed rather than on hobbyists. There seems to be far more evidence that drinking beer causes lung cancer. Seriously. I'd encourage you to read explanations of why the beer studies ought to be taken with a grain of salt, to help you put the studies about wood dust into context.

2) The mechanism by which wood dust may cause or contribute to these conditions is unknown. The few times it's discussed there seems to be suspicion about chemicals present in some woods. Not only is there no evidence that it's mechanical damage from invisible, sub-micron wood particles, there doesn't even seem to be any interest in studying them. The claims one often sees in wood forums (and from people who sell dust collectors) that wood dust causes subtle, irreversible scarring of the lungs with every breath seem to unfounded and cribbed from silica or asbestos, which are actually proven to do that. There does seem to be suspicion that general stress on the lungs increasing your chances of getting lung cancer, but, again, no evidence that it's the really fine wood particles (you know, the ones that don't seem to cause stress to the lungs but supposedly do).

Like I said before, though, there are very real issues with wood dust and lots of good reasons not to breathe it if you can help it. But when you're deciding how to protect your health you ought to go about in an informed, rational way. There may be better places to spend your energy or money than on more air filters.

[paul cottingham]

Sir, there are lots of studies linking fines to lung damage, but believe what you wish. I would point you to some of it, but I suspect you would reject it, due to its "bias."

Foolishness.

[Reed Gray]

As for dust, yea, it bothers the lungs. Some woods for sure will cause reactions, some minimal and some very serious. As to the actual cancer 'causing' issue, I would expect species to be every bit as relevant as quantity of dust inhaled. No scientific evidence, just common sense, meaning the same amount of dust from one wood may not bother you at all or as much as the same amount of dust from another species. If you don't have a dust collector, your lungs will collect it. Not good any way you look at it. Damage, well of course. Cancer, well quite possibly....

robo hippy

[William C Rogers]

What I want to protect from is sensitization and decrease risk known or unknown. You can vent outside without suffocating. I vent outside. My shop is 30 X 50 and I built it considering venting outside. I put gable vent panels the full length and up the peaks. I did not use a ridge vent. I have 12' walls and installed a drop ceiling. The gable vents are above the drop ceiling, but there are ample openings for air movement in the ceiling. When the D.C. Is running the makeup air is drawn through the gable vents and mixed with air above the drop ceiling before drawn into the shop below. I don't AC the shop and this wouldn't be ideal for a AC shop. Since the air above the drop ceiling is heated air that has risen, I can run the DC for hours with very little decrease in temperature. This works for a shop my size, but may not be near as effective for a smaller shop.

[Bob Bouis]

Your lungs can clear dust -- you wouldn't live very long if they couldn't. Certain kinds of dust have been shown to injure the lungs for various reasons -- the best two known are silica and asbestos. Some kinds of chemicals and molds, too. These cause damage to the lungs which can, usually in old age, lead to the lungs freaking out (technical medical term) and scarring over heavily (fibrosis), eventually killing you. This isn't common even among people who have been exposed to asbestos or silica, but it's known to happen and they have a pretty good idea why. Apparently the only wood dust that's proven to do this is dust with certain kinds of mold in it (and it's the mold that damages the lungs). How common are these molds? I have no idea. Might be worth looking into since wood turners seem to collect a lot of moldy wood.

There's another kind of fibrosis called idiopathic fibrosis, which from the name you can probably guess means fibrosis of unknown cause. There are some (surprisingly few, really) studies, which are basically surveys, showing that wood dust exposure correlates to better odds of getting the disease (up to three times as likely). But these are relatively small surveys with huge margins of error, and surveys of people with a disease are unreliable for obvious reasons (they've generally had a lot of time to think about what might have given them the disease compared to controls). And it's a pretty rare disease to begin with, plus there are surveys associating fibrosis with all kinds of things (metal working, farming, hairdressing, various seemingly unrelated diseases and drugs, family history, etc.). Wood dust is usually described as a "risk factor" for fibrosis.

So, far from being proven scientific fact, the claim that wood dust damages the lungs in subtle ways sometimes leading to fibrosis seems to be an educated guess at best.

As far as wood dust causing COPD (reduced lung function), I found this 2015 survey of studies done by a UK government agency:

The available evidence for a relationship between COPD and work with wooddusts is limited, of variable quality and inconsistent in its findings. No studies have been identified which suggest circumstances in which the risks of disabling loss of FEV1 are as much as doubled

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...e-aug-2015.pdf

[Ron Rutter]

As for dust, yea, it bothers the lungs. Some woods for sure will cause reactions, some minimal and some very serious. As to the actual cancer 'causing' issue, I would expect species to be every bit as relevant as quantity of dust inhaled. No scientific evidence, just common sense, meaning the same amount of dust from one wood may not bother you at all or as much as the same amount of dust from another species. If you don't have a dust collector, your lungs will collect it. Not good any way you look at it. Damage, well of course. Cancer, well quite possibly....

robo hippy

Well said Robbo. Some people obviously have to learn the hard way. The emphasis on cancer is misguided.The problem is loss of lung function,and wouldn't it b nice if our lungs expelled all that crap we breath in! That sharp wood fibers do a lot of damage is a well known fact. Ron.