Interesting thread.
I wish I had as much knowledge of the saw making trade as Pete, but I am afraid I rarely spend much time reading. From what I have read and seen first hand tells me hammer setting is not so great as touted. On the other hand the newer CNC type machines may very well do an excellent job. CNC sharpened saws are hard to compete with, until, of course, you have to sharpen them for the first time. Then it is back to square one.
As far as saw sets go. I have a bunch. The Somax anvils are garbage, and should be replaced with one made out of A2 or similar. The original Eclipse are ok, but tend to over set. The 42x is one of my favorites but the darn handle tends to get in the way on smaller saws. Or rather the vise gets in the way. All things have their down side. I know we live in a time when we want things right now, but taking ones time to search out a good quality vintage saw yields it's rewards in the end. Scope out the different wood working forums and yes, that blasted Bay. There is also a guy who "hangs out" on another forum that refurbishes saws as well. Rocky Mountain saw works. Or something like that. Best of luck in your search.
I used my 42x on a saw kit I bought from Bontz. I made a nice oversize tenon saw.
Ron's saw kits are very good. If you are interested, you should contact him.
Thank you all for the replies! Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy restorations (though I've only done mostly power tools), but I almost enjoy them too much. I spend more time doing that and acquiring tools than the woodworking! This is why I'd like something that is ready to go without having to spend the time hunting for & restoring right now, as I'd really like to get some wood projects done. I will definitely follow up with vintagesaws as well as another member who sent me a private message.
Fun update - I did just take a gamble on a 6ppi rip saw online for $50. It says it's been tuned, so we will see! However I would still like a good crosscut and like I said will be following up with the suggestions I got. I definitely understand that I'll have to pay for someone else's time & skill in restoring / fixing up an old saw.
I do also have an old disston backsaw that I bought with a miter box for $20, but the teeth needed to be filed down. So it has been sitting until I am set up to learn how to (and actually just do it) cut the teeth. I do have a 42x saw set that I got on ebay as well. Like I said, too much tool acquiring... not enough woodworking.
Eric, I think you may be starting to slide...down the slope many of us have traveled. You may find that 'getting wood projects done' has much more potential for gratification than you thought. When I was about where you are in finding/using handsaws...I happened to stop at a garage sale....didn't see any tools so started to leave & guy says "What're you looking for?" I said woodworking stuff... so he took me in the garage where I found a saw laying on a bench. Bought it for $5....turned out to be a 1940's D-23. Since then I've bought several high priced new saws and many swap meet saws....learned to restore and sharpen them (Thanks Pete!) and really enjoy every chance I get to use any one of them....but my "Go To" saw is that D-23. Best saw in my shop. First time I sharpened & set it...lasted about 5 years before I had to 'touch it up'. It is a REAL joy to use a well tuned saw. The projects you make will be exponentially more gratifying!
Good luck with your sawing. BTW....don't take it lightly that Pete Taran responded to your request. Few folks are more revered IMHO and he has given me the confidence to share what I learned from him (and others) with friends. I teach restoring/sharpening saws at our local woodworking association....we have a mentoring program. Don't know where you are but you might investigate to locate other woodworkers in your area...as you can see...woodworkers like to share & learn from peers.
A tip on using the 42x saw set.
I filed the plunger width on one of my 42-X saw sets. It allows me to set the teeth on fine tooth saws.
It is not difficult to do.
Also, check out the Ron Herman video, "Sharpen your Handsaw". He sheds some light on this subject.
Last edited by lowell holmes; 03-08-2017 at 12:52 PM.
It sounds like you are not opposed to buying a good used saw and doing at least some rehab. For that reason I decided to add my two bits (usually my thoughts are probably worth less than that), and if my thoughts are way to basic I do apologize, as I do not mean to offend by writing stuff that you learned long ago. That said, I would add the following thoughts.
I like older Disston D-8s, and the ones made in the first 1/3rd of the 1900s are usually pretty good. (If you type in "Disston type study" in a search, lots of stuff on the etch, medallions, etc. will come up to help date the Disston saws.) That said, if a used saw looks well made and carefully designed, with attention to details like making the handle well rounded where you grip it, so it is comfortable to use for quite a while without hand discomfort, is in good shape and has a tooth pattern I think I need, etc. and the price is really right, I will buy other brands. (That's why I have way too many handsaws.)
There are a lot of good brands besides Disston, but you see lots of old Disstons, and since I know more about them than other brands buying a Disston is low risk deal for me, so I prefer Disston for that reason.
Again, I like Disston D-8s. The #12s D-12s, etc., and some of there other premium Disston saws, are better than D-8s, and have thinner blades than the D-8s. (They are also usually a LOT LOT more pricy if the seller knows what he has.) However, my carpentry history is coming out here, and the D-8s are good tough professional grade saws, made with good steel, and the added saw plate thickness makes them take accidental abuse well without denting or getting bends. They were not the very top of the line for Disston, but they were still excellent saws made for professional carpenters, cabinet makers, and the better handymen who bought them back in the day of hand saws. You will not be handicapped by having a D-8. You work a little harder than with the more premium thinner saws like the #12, (I only have a couple of premium saws) but not that much harder. Also, you don't do that much sawing when you are cutting dimension lumber to rough size for something like furniture anyway.
I have WAY too many hand saws. Fortunately I gave one to a son-in-law earlier this year, rip saw...he needed one and didn't have a rip saw. We worked several hours restoring it to make it look better, and a smoothed and polished rust free saw drags less and cuts much easier. We also sharpened it. We picked through several of my non-restored saws, and picked out a pretty good one I think. Also, a polished saw blade with a good shine helps you cut truer by being able to see the reflection of the lumber in the blade, by watching the reflection and keeping this square this helps you cut squarely.
There is a lot of information on this bulletin board on restoring hand saws if you do a search in the box in the upper right hand corner at the top of this page. (You have to scroll to the top.)
In short I generally work over the handle if it needs it, cleaning and doing whatever sanding is needed to remove burs, old finish,splinters, remove sharp corners, etc. I then usually use spray lacquer if in a hurry, or brush apply polyurethane if I am not in a hurry. The poly U is tough stuff and stands up well on tool handles in my experience.
Next, I work on the saw plate (again this is After I have removed the handle and worked it over), you can work on the other stuff while the handle is drying. I first clean up the saw plate with a rust color Scotch brite, followed by very light but repeated cleaning with a fine wire steel brush to go after any pits to remove all possible corrosion. This if followed by lengthwise sanding with #320 or so carborundum sand paper, being careful to sand only lengthwise with the saw plate....no sanding at 90 degrees to the length of the plate or even at 45 degree angles, and may even follow this with 400 grit. Finally I finish up with metal polish, and work at this metal polishing fairly diligently. I then metal polish the saw nuts.
One thing I do when working on the saw plate is clamp a soft piece of thin soft piece of pine or redwood stock over the very edge of the teeth, so the teeth do not tear up the Scotch Brite pad or sandpaper.
Lastly I sharpen the saw.
As to picking out a used saw I look for a few things: 1. you want one that is dead arrow straight with no dents or bends, 2. You do not want any pitting....a LIGHT surface rust is OK if it can be cleaned off leaving a good surface with VERY minimal pitting, 3. I want a handle that is comfortable to use for extended time periods...no sharp edges and an oval shape where you grip, if possible, and finally 4., I want a good handle that can be restored, meaning no broken off horns, no splits or chunks missing, etc.
You want a saw that can be restored easily, don't make life harder for yourself by saving a few bucks but adding many hours to the restoration job. (I did that sort of thing when I was young and had no money...now I pass on the saw and wait until one comes up that is fairly easy to restore.) There are enough of them out there that you can be somewhat picky and buy a reasonable saw that is at a reasonable price. Make your life easier not harder.
Finally, you will see a lot of 26 inch 8 point crosscut hand saws, because that is the main one that was used by carpenters, and a lot of home owners bought them too. I see more of that type than all other types combined it seems. An easy conversion to a finish rip saw is to re-sharpen the 8 point cross cut to an 8 point rip. (I like a 7 point rip a lot for finish ripping, but want to re-sharpen an 8 point crosscut to and 8 point rip myself some of these times.)
As to which saws I prefer, I like a 26" 8 point cross cut saw for framing and other rough cut carpentry tasks, and a 10 or preferably a 12 point crosscut for finish crosscutting. As for rip saws, I would prefer a thumb grip handle 28" 5 point for most ripping and a 7 point rip for finish ripping. Here again, the point sizes are not hard and fast numbers and something close to those point sizes are fine.
The 28" thumb grip saws are hard to come by, and can be more expensive, so my rip saws are all 26", except for maybe 1 of them (but it has not yet been restored.) My carpentry history is showing up here, as guys like Schwarz like shorter saws, maybe 24" or even 22" for fine woodworking, but I have used standard length carpentry type saws my whole life, and so they just feel right to me. I do have shorter saws, and they work just fine, even my 16" saws that I bought for my grandkids to use when they are here. I used one just to give it a try after restoring it and was extremely pleasantly surprised how quickly and well it cut, so I think that a 24" or even a 22" would be just fine also. (Again I like 26" saws with a wide blade, but again this is just a personal preference based on years of using one that size.)
If you get an old Disston (or some other brand having good steel) that is straight, on the order of 85 or years old or older, having only a very light surface rust or better yet a smooth patina, and a handle that is not messed up, you can restore it in just a few hours and have a saw that will give great service for many many years. I use almost no power tools when restoring a saw, so if you use a power buffer, etc. it can go even quicker. (I use hand tools, etc. to restore saws, planes, etc., because you can do more damage in less time with power tools if you mess up, with hand tools it is easier to avoid messing up what you are working at restoring.)
Again, fairly simple stuff above, and am not meaning to offend by insulting a persons intelligence by my 25 cents worth of opinions here.
Good luck with the saw chase.
Stew
Last edited by Stew Denton; 03-09-2017 at 1:05 AM.
Stew, thank you so much! That is a great read. I love the tip about seeing the reflection in the blade, I would have never thought of that. Also thank you for sharing your knowledge & explanation of your preferences, all good stuff to know.
Just to give an update on this thread - I definitely plan on following up more with Pete. He has given me some great advice on what to go towards and I will be checking out his website and doing some more reading.
Just to give an update, here are the saws I now have. The top one is an Atkins that I won online the day after opening this thread. It has already been sharpened by the seller and it cuts great, however I do not! I definitely need to watch the 'sawing secrets' video again so I can learn to saw in a straight line. I think at $52 shipped it was a good buy. The middle saw is one I bought a long time ago with an old miter box for $20. The teeth were quite bad so I filed the whole plate down. I will need to get a vise & small hacksaw so that I can learn how to recut the teeth. Last is the Lie Nielsen I got as a christmas gift that I have not used yet, but am definitely exited to!
Eric, in regards to the saw that you filed down, you can find sawtooth spacing templates at Blackburntools. Go to the "Articles and Reference" tab and scroll down a bit.
I don't use a hacksaw to mark when I retooth, I just use a triangular file...which you'll need anyway.
I think you did good on the Atkins, should serve you well.
+1 on what Phil wrote. Looks like you have some excellent users, Atkins is a good brand in my view, and I too think that saw should serve you well. In addition, I really like the back saws. Let the rest of us know how the re-toothing of the back saw goes.
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