How to fix this framing?

[andy bessette]

The post should be let in, bad practice to rely on the bolts for a column beam connection. There are no shear loads on the post and if there were they would be resisted by the beam. Neither the shed roof or the main roof impose shear forces on the post.

This. Let them in.

[Brad Shipton]

Lapped connections like this are done all the time. If you have an engineered drawing from the state, look at the design loads and figure out how much load is being applied to the column at the joint. Then go back to the simpson strong tie catalog and find out how many of the SDS screws you need. Those screws are wonderful, and do not require pre-drilling. GRK makes similar ones that seem to be stocked at more stores, but their design tables are far less informative. http://www.grkfasteners.com/products/structural/rss Adding a block below is a good too. That is a common solution when you cannot fit enough nails or screws into the beam, or the quantity of screws reduces the shear capacity of the beam too much. A bit of PL Premium between that board and the column is a good safety measure.

Letting in provides good bearing, but if you did it from both sides you can in many cases do more damage than good. The reason I say you can do more damage than good because of the cross section one removes from the column at the joint. Unless the joint is absolutely perfect (never is), the column loses quite a bit of area at this joint. Even if the joint were perfect, shrinkage of the beam will lead to a small gap above the beam. In commercial construction letting in is rarely ever done because it takes more skill and time. That is not the case for timber framers, but they are in a category of their own because people pay a lot more for those and the spans are usually quite small for the member sizes.

[John P Clark]

Mel - a professional engineer means that you have a PE license and can stamp and seal drawings, be the responsible engineer in charge - in some states such as NV (where I hole a PE license) it is against the law to call yourself a engineer without a PE. My point being that I would solicit advice from some one licensed in your state so it is designed correctly, and most building departments require a sealed set of drawings to issue a building permit, and all changes need to be documented. It is better to get it correct now, rather than fail a framing inspection with the building completely framed

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks for that definition ,regional colloquialisms are always of interest. I have seen too much finger pointing between architects and engineers to believe that anyone accepts responsibility for problems just because they obviously made a mistake.

[Thomas Marr]

Based on the feedback, it's appears some type of scab/support will work. Currently, I have a 2 x 6 temporarily scabbed to the bottom of one of the double 2 x 12's, as shown below. I'd like something more rigid than wood. I can fabricate a weldment from square tubing (second picture). This could be clamped to the beam before drilling to ensure a tight fit. Or...I could create something a little more fancy with some angle and square tubing, as shown in the last picture. This might be better.

[Adam Herman]

the wood will be great. just use more of the structural screws or bolts to attach it. I't not sure the steel will actually provide any additional strentgh over the wood, and may actually weaken the screw/bolt connection unless the holes were sleeved and welded. you are still relying on the sheer strength of the fastener.

i would skip the whole thing and put an additional structural bolt through the post and call it a day.

also... is the bolt going through the butt joint on the 2nd beam? I would feel funny about all the fasteners going through that butt joint. I'm not sure on actual impact on capacity for that point though.


also. the polycarb roof is pretty neat! would love to see some pictures of the inside when its done!

[Brad Shipton]

The steel idea is overkill, but I am getting the idea that is how you like to do things. I get that, I do the same. If that makes you more comfortable, that will work. The important part in this connection is the bolts or screws. You have lots of bearing area between the beams and the scabs. Beams like this are sized on the basis of their bending strength. Shear does not usually govern for the type of spans you mention. Myself, I would likely remove the scab you installed, and install longer pieces under both beam plies using PL Premium, and Simpson SDS screws (https://www.strongtie.com/strongdriv...onnector-screw) or GRK RSS. If the live load on the floor is 40PSF, and the dead load is 10PSF, it seems to me you need enough bolts/screws and/or adhesive for an allowable load of 4000lb. There are a few other things an engineer will consider in a detailed design, but that is the main part of the load for simple construction like this. You should check with the local building department to see if they have any design tables.

Tech spec for PL Premium: http://www.lepage.ca/content/dam/uac...%20Premium.pdf You can find this at any hardware store. I posted a Canadian link, but it does have imperial measurements because many of us use imperial measurements.

[John K Jordan]

Thomas, I am not a professional engineer (professional can mean someone who gets paid for the job) and I don't play one on TV. I reinforced similar 2x12 beams when rebuilding my own very old barn by running additional lumber from under the beam all the way down to rest on the concrete in the ground. I fastened the additional boards to the post with screws. I convinced myself it was strong enough, effectively increasing the cross-section of the post.

Looks like that will be a fantastic barn. I leveled and graveled a site years ago for a new barn - feel free to come build another one just like it in your spare time when you get done with yours. Where did you find plans?

JKJ

[Bill Dufour]

I would use a scab of 4x4 not 2x4. teh 2x4 only supports one beam. the 4x4 would support both.
Bill D.

[Wayne Lomman]

Talk about over complicated! Give the OP a break and stop raiding his wallet. With all due respect to engineers, no opinion is required. Malcolm has the answer. Fit jack studs and walk away. Problem fixed in minutes. No building inspector ever complained about extra timber. You can even put a fancy bevel or some other profile on the edges to make them decorative. Cheers

[Mel Fulks]

Talk about over complicated! Give the OP a break and stop raiding his wallet. With all due respect to engineers, no opinion is required. Malcolm has the answer. Fit jack studs and walk away. Problem fixed in minutes. No building inspector ever complained about extra timber. You can even put a fancy bevel or some other profile on the edges to make them decorative. Cheers

I like it. And my flippancy earlier was based on the simplicity of the problem ,and certainly not lack of admiration and respect for engineers. I just don't think you could even hire an engineer for such a small piece of job. And further scope would be expensive overkill.

[John K Jordan]

I just don't think you could even hire an engineer for such a small piece of job.

Actually, you can. I hired an engineer to spec a beam for a long span when adding a roof over an entrance way where I wanted to maximize clearance and view. (If at the barn I'd simply add another post or just overbuild it.)

An architect friend who gave me the name of a local structural engineer he uses a lot for small jobs. The guy was good, quick, and less expensive than I thought.

Small architectural firms don't always have an in-house structural engineer so that might be a good place to start when looking for one.

JKJ

[Mel Fulks]

John, that's good advice. But your job was bigger. Still don't think one would take on op's job without more info than the simple single line drawing ,but the problem was solved here. I predict his building is not going to fall down. If I took op's drawing into an engineers office and asked for quick answer while dropping a hundred dollar bill on desk....I'd get an answer like " I'm not running a shoe shine stand".
Professionals are legally liable, they can't advise without bigger scope.

[John K Jordan]

John, that's good advice. But your job was bigger. Still don't think one would take on op's job without more info than the simple single line drawing ,but the problem was solved here. I predict his building is not going to fall down. If I took op's drawing into an engineers office and asked for quick answer while dropping a hundred dollar bill on desk....I'd get an answer like " I'm not running a shoe shine stand". Professionals are legally liable, they can't advise without bigger scope.

I don't know if my job was bigger than the barn question. It took the guy just a few minutes discuss the issues and study my drawing, look up things in a book, and prepare a response. The cost was a $100 bill.

I'm not going to argue legality and what a professional needs to do his job. Best ask them. This guy wanted a line drawing and the answer I got was another line drawing. We communicated by phone and email.

Personally I would have just fixed the barn issue to my own satisfaction but I think knowing about the possibility of an inexpensive consultation might be useful for someone who was the least unsure, even if the answer was just an educated opinion. I have several friends and a son who are architects who have passed the PE - I occasionally ask an opinion without holding anyone responsible. They all know more than I do.

JKJ

[Mel Fulks]

John, you have demonstrated that a real hundred dollar bill buys a lot more than my imaginary one!