A Personal Question? How much do you charge?

[John Lucas]

Years ago, I was called into an office of an old friend whose boss was in need of slides for a business presentation. Boss was actually the founder and president and he had his slide needs on the front and back of a cocktail napkin. The business was a very high priced software package for banking back room operations (currency evaluation by the second). I didnt know didly about the area but I knew how to ask questions. And after an hour with the pres (who was leaving in day a half to Hong Kong and TOkyo, I found out that he was making presentations to key banking groups over there wanting to come back with $25million seed money for next generation of software. The sldies I was to make were for that. I asked to see his proposal to these people - none. I asked to see him business plan that spelled out the time line - none. SO I spend 2 hours asking more questions and went back to office to develop business plan, proposal - no slides (which I had been called in for,.) I worked 27 hours straight and hand delivered duplicated sets to him at airport at 8 am on SUnday in ice storm.
When I put together the bill, I realized that we had never mentioned what this would cost. So I put together invoice prepared to do battle. $3,000. (1982 dollars)
A week later, I got call from the person who had brought me in in the first place and I thought for sure he was going to quiblle on invoice. I was going to hold my ground. He mumbled on and on and finally said that E. had made his presentations and gotten commitment of $32million. I heard this and could only say to myself (WOW!!!) and then he (treasurer) said "E and I have a problem with your invoice of $3000. And I slowly started to put words together for a response, when he continued "we have upped that to $10,000 and feel that that is proably low, considering the outcome. That was a wow!!! but I also had a new client and a couple of years of computer based promotion programs.
My point is, that we work too hard on the pricing based on materials and hourly wages. "What the market will bear (or bare)" is very important to keep in mind. Yes, most of what I did had to be priced on hourly basis. Video production is a very competitive area (particularly when all the wedding video folks start bidding against you).
But "what am I worth?" is an important question to ask. It is not about what machines I have and how no one else has this array of big machines. "What am I worth?"

[Dave Tinley]

I am down here in central Texas with a large amount of middle class with some high class wantabe's.
I am also just a part timer for now but hope to change that by the end of the year. Right now I bid a job using a $35 per hr rate and 20 % mark up on retail for materials. Since I buy alot of rough lumber and sheet goods at wholesale prices I make alittle profit there, which covers the $ per hr. Cause I just cant beat the time I estimate.
If I lived farther north towards Dallas/ Ft Worth I would definitly have a higher shop rate.

Dave

[Alan Mikkelsen]

Surprised no one has mentioned the location factor.

Work done in Palo Alto, CA or Bedford, NY might cost about the same.

But that same work in Benton Falls, ME or Charlo, MT will cost a considerably different amount.

This holds true for materials, labor, and overhead.

And this makes the figures Dev is looking for somewhat misleading.

Whoa! How the heck do you know about Charlo, MT???? That's just next to my small town (St. Ignatius)!

[Dave Falkenstein]

I consider myself a "part-time pro" at woodworking, since I do a fair number of projects for a fee. I am retired, but do not want to give the impression that I am willing to give away my time and effort. My work includes cabinetry (both building and installing), repairs of various kinds and decks. I find I cannot get enough for my time making custom furniture - I guess I'm too slow at it. I typically charge whatever I pay for materials and $40 per hour for labor, which includes overhead time like shopping time to buy the materials. On a few jobs I will quote a flat price and I find my time typically works out to $35 to $70 per hour on those jobs, depending on the size and complexity. I prefer to work on an hourly basis, and try hard to be fair with my clients.

[David Pettibone]

Even though I only do laminate countertops for a living, I do a few things different than most guys in my area.

In the beginning, it was approximately $30 a linear foot for tops, depending on how many feet. I add up all the inches, divide by 12 and multiply by 30. Tear-out of old tops and sink removal are different rates. Then I went to saying that I don't price by the linear foot, I price by the job. Most customers want to compare what the other guy charges and then say he's cheaper than you. I got 3 estimates and this guy beat you by $125, can you come down. My answer is always a kind "no I can't do that". I'm not high, he's low. My price is fair for the work that I am doing for you based off my materials, time, and yes, quality of work. You won't get burned edges and radius corners you can push in and out with your thumb.

I have too LARGE albums with pictures of many, many jobs I have done and that alone helps tremendously.

When people ask, what do you mean price by the job, I say that I figure out my materials, based off the kitchen measurements, and come up with a fair figure for them and for me based off my time and materials.

Example: I qouted a job $1900 a year and half ago. Two other companies were within $150 of my bid. The gentleman called me a couple days later and said someone underbid you by $700!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I told him a builder would not get it that cheap from me and there is no way I could do anything with that price.
Well, the company in question took my samples that I had left with the homeowner to look over for a few days(obviously, they qouted after my qoute). I said, no problem, I'll pick them up after they're done with the job, if you don't mind. He was so happy that I was willing to come look at their work after I didn't get the job, I thought he was going to come through the phone and hug me!!! Well..........3 days after the top was complete, I go to look at their work. I told him I would be honest and that I get no satisfaction from putting down anyone else's work. If it's good, I'll tell ya.
Well the seam at the sink was open enough that I could almost put a dime in it. They used white caulk on a brownish colored top. The edges of the laminate were burned on almost every linear foot of countertop in the kithen. The radius corners flexed in and out. Here's the kicker. They routed all the laminate off with a straight bit and I swear they didn't file any of it. You could take your finger nails and slightly lift up the edges any where you tried. That part, I didn't have the heart to say anything about to the homeowner. The burned edges (which they asked "what is that"), the open seam and the caulk I did tell them about.

This thread was about how much guys charge for their work, and Dev, I hope I have not gone off topic too much. Although I would never ever mention another company by name to any customer, I do tell a quick version of this situation, one of many, I have had in the past. I only do this with a few certain customers who start asking about price a lot or quality of work compared to others. I also tell them there are many good fabricators out there, but there are some bad ones too. Don't just go by price for foot. Decide if you feel comfortable with me and what I've said and showed you during my estimate.

The gentleman with the $700 difference said "how can he be so much lower?". I said there's a reason for it, I can tell you that. I also said, if he was that good why wouldn't his qoutes be more in line with every else's. Doesn't he want to make $700 more? The company in question doesn't have to worry about referrals, they will always get phone calls from people who don't know their work and then they will get a lot of those jobs because a certain percentage of people are always looking for the lowest price.

Price by the job (if you can) and don't be shy about your work. Pictures help alot and so do referrals (the most powerful business tool you have). I almost forgot. I was told recently that the company in question closed down and opened up under another name. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thanks for reading and God Bless you if you made it this far!

David

[Rob Millard]

I like to make $ 850-1000 a week, but I don't always get to that level. I figure it comes out to about $20.00 per hour. I live in an area where the cost of living is low. I read a lot about what others make, and I'm a little shocked at the high prices they get. Of course depending on where you live you may have to make that much, but it sure puts them at a disadvantage to me ( maybe that's why I have a 14 month waiting list).
I have a customer in NJ, who pays more in car insurance a year than my car cost! He told me about going into New York for a show and paying $65.00 to park. I recently paid $5.00 to park in downtown Dayton, Ohio and nearly cried. If I lived in a high cost area, woodworking wouldn't be a viable way to make a living.
Rob Millard

[Bob Oehler]

This is a little off but still applies to pricing woodworking
I Repair and Restore Watches. Mostly antique pocket watches and High End wristwatches.

My inital pricing rule is price so
1. That about 25% of the quotes are rejected. This gets rid of the people who will drive you nuts. Those are Tupers (see end for a deffinition)
2. The more expensive/rare the watch the higher the over all cost. Like was said in a earlier post Look at the tires and shoes also look at the watches.
3. On things that may have hidden problems state that when you estimate. Always use the word estimate when it's in this kind of situtation. Also quote high. What ever I see wrong or think may be worng I price out then double that number. This has worked out so far. Also work it so if you find somthing real deep and bad you notify them of a higher price or a no repair and put it back to gether and eat what is already done.
4. I charge 50/hour when figuring my estimates. and eat if a job takes a little longer. If they ask how that figure come about I say how much did it cost per hour at the car repair place last time ???? If there is a lot of unseen things see #3.


Take care
Bob Oehler

PS here is the Tuper deffinition
There are 2 percent of the population you do not want to do business with.

[Dev Emch]

Woodworking, like photography, suffers from the interesting phenomena that if you price yourself too low, nobody wants you. In fact, the more money you charge, the more in demand you become. I think there is a perception of value in having a high priced contractor, especially in today's society that is obsessed with outdoing the joneses.

Dev, you actually make stuff with those machines? I've never seen one post from you that shows off a peice you've built.

Sure do. And if you come during the summer, you can also get a tool around town in a 1917 Stanley Steamer turing car. At least assuming that they got the cylinder fixed. Last summer, they were hauling a bunch of tourists up a hill and put the pedal to the metal or should I say, opened up the steam valve a bit too much and blew a crack in one of the cylinders. A guy in PA is recasting and remachining the cylinder. Should be done now but its winter and the season starts in may.

As to photos. Yes, my current job was virtually a give away. I took this job with the caveat that I can get some work into a prominent place and be able to photograph to my hearts content. So photos, expensive ones at that, are on the way. I am also working with a designer to put together a website. I have been lacking in this department for a while. Another OWWMer, Thom Houser, has an awsome website and I am borrowing ideas from him in this regard.

[Dev Emch]

i have a question for you guys who are billing in excess of 50 bucks per hour..at the end of the week do you really see that money? for only a 40 hr week that`s 100k per year! honestly i`ve known guys who own large shops with lots of employees who don`t really make that kind of money when all the cards are on the table. yeah it might make you feel good to post those prices by the register but in reality what`s really going on? i have a pretty well equiped shop and lotsa years under my belt building furniture so i really don`t think i`m a slacker in the production department and the market in my area will not support those wages. i`d be spending more than half my time looking for clients instead of working and i seriously doubt i`d have return clientele if i billed at that rate. let`s face it there are not countless sam maloofs on this forum, most of us are working stiffs, retirees,or weekend warriors so try to be honest with yourself as well as the folks here.......i was......02 tod

You have brought up an excellent point. First of all, I am willing to bet that the red face factor often under shoots the time bid. So you may charge less but your time investment is more accurate. We may charge more but we have undershoot the time bid to get the job in the first place. I know I have done this before. Secondly, hunting down clients is serious business. As Per said, check out the shoes and the tires. I also check out the ride. If they are driving a relatively new econo box, you may be in trouble. BMWs are the best. Mercedes are price hagglers. Chevy and Ford CAR owners are window shoppers. Diesel Pickup onwers are weekend warriers who often own a half decent hobby shop themselves. They are mining for info and ideas and may be wishing to the occasional project. Forgive me for saying this, SMC members are the worst customers of all. Ninty percent of you guys can do this work without any help.

But good BMW customers are not that hard to find. They often hang out in groups and those are the areas you need to go hunting in. Doctors, Lawyers, Businessmen, etc. They are demanding and often have their own set of rules and dos and donts. But they write nice large and non-plastic checks so swallow your pride and accept the rules. The downside is if you bogger up. That is a call back and rework issue. And these are comming out of your pocket book. SO DONT GET INTO THAT SITUATION!

Lastly, my Dad was a business consultant. He explained that half your working time is doing the job. The other half is hunting for the next job. The problem is charging enough for the current job to cover the time for hunting the next job. My biggest issue here is when there are female types in the house. Often when your trying to close the next job they are hen picking you to do something around the house, etc. Your not on a current job, thus, you must be available. Geezzzz!

[Dan Oliphant]

OK Dev, you have received quite a few responses from us, now, how does this info compare with what YOU CHARGE, AND HOW YOU ESTIMATE A JOB!!!!!
To this point in the thread I have noticed the info is only going one way.

[John Scane]

It seems in Southern California....prices are a bit higher based on what my architectural clients pay for custom cabinets and hand made furniture...If they are working with an interior dsigner the furniture gets marked up even more. I know what some of the shops charge and the quality and price are not always in sync. I know a woodworker that does great work and is much less expensive than other shops...
The few pieces I have made for clients are based on hours and then I always try to find someting close to what I am making in a gallery...just to compare.

If the work is designed in a unique way it becomes art and its value increases...it becomes dificult to compare and people will pay the price and wait in a long line to get it... At $20,000 a rocker , Maloof has an endless list of buyers. Its the real thing...its unique ...and it has real value..
It is worth the time to design your work to be distinctive ....then you are no longer compared based on price....you can't be compared...you are you!
This has notion has helped me in my Architctural practice....I have not designed everybodys home.....the ones I have done are not for everyone...they are custom and do not apeal to everyones tastes...but, when they want one, they are willing to pay for the design and the construction and they are not interested in cheaper versions or substitutes.
Try to do the best work you can and make it "yours" distinctive and eveything else will follow including the $$$$

Well said Mark.

To add to that, sometimes a piece made as art might take you 200
+ hours, If it were a table or something small even at $40 and hour that works out to $8000. You might not be able to charge that much for what it is......So depending on what it is you might have to make less on a certain item and make more on one that takes less time. If your making art you have to price it according to your market as an artist.
I never make as much per hour making furniture as I do making a painting.

[Michael Gibbons]

Gee, Am I glad that this is a hobby, not my profession. I suppose if I were to make a couple peices and took them to a craft show or something and sold them for a few bucks that would be O.K. with me. I read somewhere that people think nothing of plopping 65k for a Lexus which will eventually wear out but won't buy an excellent piece of furniture for maybe $3000 which will, with minimum care, last 100 years or more. Those same people will buy an antique shaker chest of drawers for $100,000 and not blink an eye. Both pieces are made using the same materials and techniques but the new furniture gets the brush off? WHY?

[Shelley Bolster]

I also check out the ride. If they are driving a relatively new econo box, you may be in trouble. BMWs are the best. Mercedes are price hagglers. Chevy and Ford CAR owners are window shoppers. Diesel Pickup onwers are weekend warriers who often own a half decent hobby shop themselves.

Hey Dev, I hate to tell you this, but you might be showing your age a tad with an example such as you used above. Times- they have changed from when you drove what you could afford. The guy with the econo box or Chevy car might just have paid cash for their vehicles......the guy driving the Mercedes .......could very well have over-extended himself and has 1001 Ways How to Cook Hamburger open on his counter-top. Just take a look at some of the pretty high priced vehicles parked outside Walmart.
Is it just me, but I find it is really puzzling as to why two of the lowest per hour rate guys are also, IMO, two of the very best woodworkers/craftsmen here. Man - am I in good company or what because I don't charge anywhere near what some of you are. I have a decent shop......with a couple of good tools.....nothing spectacular but certainly workable. I have been doing this for enough years as to have a pretty good idea with several different aspects of good craftsmanship but no way could I justify charging anywhere near $50 or $60 an hour. Granted - local does play a big part - no argument there but come on.......there are alot of hobbiest just learning the business themselves and they are actually charging and getting that? I am going back to make my peanuts for the day and pout!!

[Dave Avery]

...
My point is, that we work too hard on the pricing based on materials and hourly wages. "What the market will bear (or bare)" is very important to keep in mind. ... But "what am I worth?" is an important question to ask. It is not about what machines I have and how no one else has this array of big machines. "What am I worth?"

Well said, John.... better than my attempt .... Said a little bit differently, and this applies to Shelley's concerns expressed above, the best woodworker does not make the most money. The competent woodworker who knows the value of his work makes the most money.

[Dave Falkenstein]

OK Dev, you have received quite a few responses from us, now, how does this info compare with what YOU CHARGE, AND HOW YOU ESTIMATE A JOB!!!!!
To this point in the thread I have noticed the info is only going one way.

Dan - Dev did post what he charges - please see post #17 in this thread.