Old vs. New

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I learned how to do masonry from a book years ago, but I was VERY slow and inefficent and made some stupid mistakes. A few hours watching a mason work and pestering him with questions about why he did certain things did wonders for both my speed and the quality of my results.

Dave, laying bricks is definitely an art form isn't it? I have done a fair amount over the years and while they look okay, the speed is definitely very slow.

[Jerry Olexa]

Time is usually the issue but generally, the old tools are better IMHO. For example, the old Stanley planes are far better than the current again IMHO. I still have an old Rockwell elec drill that is my favorite> Just my 2 cents...

[Alan DuBoff]

A mentor can help you avoid purchasing that cast iron paperweight with a tote, and blade than wouldn't cut butter. He or she can show you what sharp is and how to get there with minimal cost and effort. Books and the internet can act as a surrogate mentor to some extent, but only a few false starts and lots of time and effort expended will substitute for someone standing by your shoulder guiding you and giving continuous instantaneous feedback.

Very much like the internet, there doesn't seem to always be a convenient mentor, or one that has the same needs/interests. I say this in regard to sometimes accepthing their values or the tools they prefer, not that it's a bad thing, just that in some cases one might select different. So, I think it's important to take any advice on the inet, or from a mentor with some grain of salt.

In the same regard, sometimes people have idols, or place craftsment on a pedestal, only to find out they're not the person and/or craftsman they thought before they met them. I agree that it helps to have a mentor, or at least someone to show you how to do things as it certainly saves time. Part of being a woodworker is being able to decide when you need to do something a specific way, or having a tool to do something. For me, I find that I will often use the wrong tool, or just do what works with a tool I have, and this aspect attracts me also, even if I take longer to do something.

The internet is able to fill a gap, where pictures and streaming media can be incorporated into the next best thing to having a mentor, but VHS/DVDs have done that for quite some time also. I am a believer that a real craftsman can use any tool, even the cast iron paperweight with a tote, or the blade that won't cut butter. That's also something to admire. Being good enough to come up with your own solution is a big piece of the puzzle. Having good tools is as well. Any help, mentors or other (inet, VHS, DVD, TV, et al) is only a plus, and in some cases like you point out...a big plus!

Jerry, if it was as simple as saying, "which is better, an old stanley or a new stanley?", I think the choice would be easy. But it's a bit more difficult to compare an old stanley to a new LN plane, or a new LV plane, or a Steve Knight plane, or a Wayne Anderson plane, or a Carl Holtey, etc...that seems to make things a bit more difficult for me. All of these solutions will work, and because of the pure volume of tools that most woodworkers acquire, there are reasons that folks would want vintage or new. Choice is good, and an old tools is not always the best tool, albeit old tools are nice, I like them a lot!

[James Mittlefehldt]

I tend to be like Dave Anderson a mix of both. For example to buy a Millwright's mortising chisle off that auction site, is somewhat expensive, as by the time I pay for shipping and then convert to Canadian dollars it would be more than a new Hirsch Chisel, so one win for Hirsch. By the way they are a real joy to use the right tool for the right job, work great.

I also have thought a great deal about something that Bob Smalser said a while back (by the way is he okay I have not seen him about much of late) that being that, many people today would probably be surprised at how FEW tools many of the craftsmen of old made do with, and still got the job done. I of course only buy tools to use and the fact that I have several Ohio Tool PLanes is a coincidence.

Though I am curious Allan as to why you feel you need so many size backsaws I use three and they do everything I need. A 12 inch rip cut and 14 inch crosscut R. E. Smith saws and a Pax rip cut dovetail saw and frankly I don't see where I would need anymore.

I agree that for what you would pay for a Bedrock you would be better off with a new LV or LN, as it would not be that much more.

I sould also add that my favourite two planes are my Ohio Tool 07C and my low angle Veritas Block plane so old and new, the 07 cost four dollars and now does yoeman's work. Unless you are a collector, and there is nothing wrong with that, I would suggest the best course is to buy the best tool you can get for the best price old or new.

[Jerry Olexa]

[]Very muquote=Alan Jerry, if it was as simple as saying, "which is better, an old stanley or a new stanley?", I think the choice would be easy. But it's a bit more difficult to compare an old stanley to a new LN plane, or a new LV plane, or a Steve Knight plane, or a Wayne Anderson plane, or a Carl Holtey, etc...that seems to make things a bit more difficult for me. All of these solutions will work, and because of the pure volume of tools that most woodworkers acquire, there are reasons that folks would want vintage or new. Choice is good, and an old tools is not always the best tool, albeit old tools are nice, I like them a lot![/quote]

Alan, very well said. Good points. From my limited perspective, the older tools were better. But today, I generally buy new tools except for planes and certain hand tools. Time and expediancy tend to win in our hurried world..Thanks for your comments

[Alan DuBoff]

Though I am curious Allan as to why you feel you need so many size backsaws I use three and they do everything I need. A 12 inch rip cut and 14 inch crosscut R. E. Smith saws and a Pax rip cut dovetail saw and frankly I don't see where I would need anymore.

James, a good question, and the honest answer is that you do not NEED so many. But in reality, there are reasons why there are different size saws, with different teeth patterns (smaller or larger), as well as rip vs. crosscut.

Since I subscribe to the school of thought which says a crosscut is for cutting across the grain, and a rip is for cutting along/with the grain, this would require at minimum 2 saws for each size. The majority of folks make due with only 1 saw, and get either a fine rip or fine crosscut saw which can cut against or with the grain. The fine teeth make it possible to use the tool in the adverse situation (both rip and crosscut if the teeth are fine enough).

However, there are different style saws also, and a gent's saw is needed. I prefer the old Disston 68s for this purpose, or at least this is what I have. I will file one as crosscut so I have both teeth at my access. Then I like to have a small joinery saw, I prefer 8" with a low dovetail profile, this is much different to me than a tenon saw, albeit a small tenon saw (or even a large one;-) will work fine. So, I would prefer to have a pair of those also.

I then want a pair of small tenon saws which have a bit thicker blade, and a slightly coarser tooth pattern (10"). The 10" small tenon saws are not deep enough to cut larger stock, and a 12" (the next size) will work. Some of the 12" and 14" saws have a slightly lower profile with a smaller depth, so it's easy to want a pair of 12" that would be slightly lower cutting height vs a higher depth which could be on a 14". We're already up to 10 saws if you want both crosscut and rip for each. There are also 16" backsaws if one wanted a complete collection of users, or other specialty saws such as a 6" gent's style jewler's saw with 20-25 ppi, and for that one probably doesn't need both rip and crosscut. I have a Spear Jackson that is not as fine, but small like this.

But it's easy to have a dozen backsaws for cutting joinery, really not much different than having a full set of chisels, or a full set of planes. Does a woodworker need a full set or any of these tools? I think not. But the question is that if you had them, would you use them? And to me the answer is an astounding, yes, given the various situations and needs for cutting joinery. When backsaws are $10-$20 for decent saws, tell me, what does it really matter?

Now, think about assembling such a set of saws, many of the saws need to be fettled, sharpened, set, and tuned up to work properly. I can do this myself, so can do with an old saw that I fix up, but without sharpening your own saws, forget it as you will not have a decent tool to use most likely (IOW, most saws are not sharp which you buy in the used market). You need to buy more saws that you would want, as you won't like all of them, or want to compare similar saws to find the ones you do like. This is akin to Bob Smalser assembling a set of vintage chisels and buying 200 of them so he can find the ones he likes. In the end it's cheaper to buy a large qty of vintage saws, if one has the skills needed to rehab and tune them up. Saws have various problems also, loose saw nuts (especially on old split-nuts), broken teeth, kinks in the blades, broken handle tips, thick rust, etc...so it takes a QTY of saws to choose from to find the ones one likes. Even so, one needs to spend the time and effort to rehab and make the saws usable.

Jerry, we're on the same page as far as I can tell, and I do own both old and new. I find the few new planes I have to be superior in some ways, but not anything that is needed to accomplish the same task. Small things like the slop in the adjusters, small nicks in the mouth or scratches/nicks to the sole, or even an imperfect tote or knob. It's not that this character is not good, in some ways it gives the old tools personality. But it just all depends on what the tool is, how much the vintage one cost, and what a new comparable/improved model might cost. This is all a personal choice, and as I said I think choice is good.

[Travis Johnson]

This is an interesting thread, and for two reasons...

I live only a few towns away from Lie Neisen and I can say for sure that they are doing very well. Considering that this man started with a ratty old barn and has moved up to the state of the art facility means that people are buying his tools. That's good, because the economy in Maine, especially in Warren Maine, really needs this kind of industry...any industry right now.

Fortunately I also live close to the largest used tool store in the Northeast...Liberty Tool Company. Its the best of both worlds for me because I can purchase high end tools for the everyday kind of stuff (dovetails/ lovetails/ low angle block planes/ bench planes) and yet, also purchase used hand tools for the hand tools I will use less often, or tools I want to experiment with.

[Alan DuBoff]

Its the best of both worlds for me because I can purchase high end tools for the everyday kind of stuff (dovetails/ lovetails/ low angle block planes/ bench planes) and yet, also purchase used hand tools for the hand tools I will use less often, or tools I want to experiment with.

I envy you, but I live right in front of my monitor, and it can access ebay.;-) Seriously, ebay has enabled me to find tools that I would have a very hard time finding locally. It has changed what folks have the ability to obtain, and I think it's great in that regard. The problem is that it requires some time to "play". With that said, so does going to fleas and swaps, they take plenty of time.

Have you bought some LN planes, if so, which ones? Curious to what type of new tools you own vs. old tools.

[Don Baer]

While reading this thread I was reminded of the workshop I took with Sam Maloof. He said use the right tools for the task at hand. He would use a rasp just as he would use a band saw or a router as well as a scraper. He would use what he felt was the right tool for the job. Would he use a festool ? well he did have a festool sander in a part of his shop but I doubt if a plunge saw would fit the kind of work he does and a guided router would definitly work for him.

I use hand planes, rasps and scrapers as well as TS, band saws and my lathe Some of my tools are older that were handed down by my father who has since gone on to the great work shop in the shy. Other are brand new. for me it's all about the art and not so much the tools.

[Travis Johnson]

Well Alan, here is the skinny of it all. My old tools (both power and hand) far outnumber my new tools. I guess I am too frugal to replace many of them, and of the few that I do, I make sure are work horses of the shop.

My LN tools consist of a Model makers plane and then some dovetailing/ lovetailing tools. I have just got into the latter stuff and felt that it was something that would remain with me for life. To that end, I felt investing heavily in tools that would last that long was a great plan. At age 32, I can justify the high cost of LN tools.

Of course all this hand tooling stuff is new to me. I probably will never replace all my power tools, but if I could explain to you the intense satisfaction of taking a shaving of end-grain wood off with a block plane, well I would be touring the country giving motivational speeches instead of typing this reply There is just something about hand tools that makes you feel connected to the task.

I do not ebay so I I forget that option exists. I certainly did not mean to sound like I was gloating, but having Liberty Tool so close to me is a resourse I would like to use more of. Here is the problem though. I am new to hand tools so I do not know what I am looking at or what I should be looking for. I am hoping the woodworkers on this board will be able to help me learn more in this department.

As much as I love going down to LN and shopping there, buying 3 used planes to their 1 cost wise appeals to me if they still perform as they should. Also (for me anyway) there is extra satisfaction in taking that same whisper of end-grain wood off a plane that is 50 years old.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Alan, as I read the replies to this thread it occurred to me that no one was really responding to what I perceived as your message, that we as tool users should feel some sort of obligation to keep modern handtool manufacturers in business by buying their products. Is that correct or am I mistaken in the intent of your e-mail?

[Doug Ketellapper]

Dennis, I personally don't feel any obligation to keep modern handtool manufacturers in business. Any business should have a compelling reason for me to purchase their product. That said, I when I do buy a modern handtool I do try to purchase it as direct as possible so that the get the full benefit of my purchase. The only way I've ever bought LN or Veritas tools is directly from them. Sure I could save a few bucks getting LN elsewhere, but it's worth it to me to support them that way so that they can go on making great tools. On the other side of the coin, if someone I knew was considering buying an Anant plane I'd go out of my way to find them an old Stanley, Sargent, Dunlap, whatever to buy (I keep some on hand just for this purpose), and fettle it for them for free. (After they get used to it and like it I'd convince them to buy an aftermarket iron from Hock, LN, or LV .) Companies that make and sell crap should not be rewarded for doing so. Anyhow, that's how I do business.

[Tyler Howell]

Still very new to hand tools I like both. I think the most exciting adventures I've had in wood working has been the rust hunt. During and after a ten week Neander class, I set out on a journey that took me to many places and put me in contact with many wonderful people. We spent most of the class on identifying, sharpening and fettling our tools. After acquiring a respectable variety of oldies I branched out on some new modals based on reports from fellow creekers
Clearly my favorite is a LN Brass102. The fit and finish are un believable.
A Bedrock 605 comes in second along with a LV LA Jack. Next a Sweetheart #80.
Still learning to use them, I've yet to discover all the wonders the old and new tools hold. The adventure continues .

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan, as I read the replies to this thread it occurred to me that no one was really responding to what I perceived as your message, that we as tool users should feel some sort of obligation to keep modern handtool manufacturers in business by buying their products. Is that correct or am I mistaken in the intent of your e-mail?

Dennis,

It was not so much that we should be obligated to buy these tools, but that we should be aware that if we don't support and buy tools from the modern toolmakers, we shouldn't expect them to innovate, manufacture, or offer tools for sale. We are obligated to acklowledge this fact, more than being obligated to buy tools from them.

As users, when we do buy tools, we should buy from the vendors that best provide tools that meet our needs, and to offer us the best tools that we can obtain, but unless they can offer some type of innovation, or improvement to the older vintage comparables, I see no reason that folks should support them.

Travis, I agree with your assesment and one of the reasons I don't own many newer planes at this point. But I will acquire more. I have some new saws which Mike Wenzloff made for me, they're wonderful. I appreciate a good tool, period, can be old or new.

Tyler, I got a LN rabbet block plane not long ago when Woodcraft had it on sale for $119. It's a great little plane, and resembles how you describe the fit and finish on the 102. It is such a nice tool, it makes me WANT to live like I mean it!