Plane question

[James Ayars]

Here's my situation. I have no planes. I would like to get one for the purpose of reducing the amount of sanding I have to do. I can't afford a LN or Veritas. Would the Stanley planes and/or Groz planes sold by Woodcraft serve my purpose? If so, which brand would be preferred? My guess is Stanley, but only a guess. Also which size..4or5 or some other size?

Many thanks for all the advice I've gotten on this forum.
James

[Doug Shepard]

The Anant (India) planes are also decent lower cost planes. Highland Hardware sells them. I picked up a #8 for $89. It's hard to find much wrong with it - especially at that price.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi James,

If I wanted to reduce my sanding and could only choose one plane to cover many situations?

I would recommend two and some extra bits actually. I know that wasn't what you requested...but.

I would get the Veritas cabinet scraper--or a vintage #80 if I could find one cheaper. I couldn't at the time and so bought the Veritas/Lee Valley one.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,310&p=46266

I would also purchase a block plane for edge work and small face work. Again, if I couldn't find an inexpensive Stanley, say a #9 1/2, I would buy the LV low angle block plane.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,48942
The reason for it is LV is soon to release its attachable tote/handle for it which essentially turns it into a #3 size plane. So with the one plane it is comfy for hand-held use or both hands.

A vintage block is much less expensive, though.

And then I would pick up the set of hand-held scrapers to handle a decent variety of curves and flat surfaces:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...310,41069&ap=1

The LV cabinet scraper is roughly $47 new, the last, the hand scrapers is roughly $11. So the only higher cost item is a block plane. A vintage one shouldn't cost more than $25.

If I still wanted a plane instead, I would find a good vintage plane, a pre-WWII Stanley, Sargent or Millers Falls. The whole numbered planes are generally a lot less than the half-numbered ones.

Due to the variability of quality and the amount of possible work to make a new lower-cost plane really worth using, I would recommend avoiding them.

Walt Quadrato, a member here and another forum, has many good selections of vintage planes in good shape, from block planes and scrapers to many "regular" planes and I would recommend him to anyone in a heartbeat.

Take care, Mike

[skip coyne]

for a first plane a 4 or 5 would be the choice .

I would buy a flea mkt/garge sale / ebay, Stanley over something made in india .

I recently picked up a stanley 4C in good shape for $4.00 at a grage sale , he had a number 5 in rough shape for the same money.

the stanley have been used for generations of crafstsman it will serve you well.

[Mark Stutz]

James,
This is a recurring dilemma. Mike has some good advice. The problem with the planes you refer to is that they are not ready to go out of the box. The first plane I bought was a Stanley from Woodcraft...they shouldn't be alowed to sell these! ...and I stuck with sandpaper for a couple more years! It wasn't until I had the opportunity to use a well tuned plane, thanks to a visit to Dave Anderson's shop, that I had any clue as to what a plane could do. So after using his a short time I bought a LN to use. I have since gone back and with a LOT OF WORK can get that plane to make passable shavings, but it is not one to start out on. A vintage Stanley tuned by one with some experience may be the best way to go. Sort of like having a mentor, which would be the ideal situation. Then you can search garage sales and such, with the knowledge that you can make whatever you get functional.

Mark

[Richard Neel]

James,

I bought a Groz #4 for much the same reason. I have since picked up a LN block and LN 4 1/2. It wasn't until I had the nicer planes that I realized what a poor tool the Groz is. Mine had the added "feature" of a bent frog adjustment screw which I couldn't seem to get Groz to replace. The blade is also poor (too thin) and hard to tune for a beginner.

I know you said you can't afford the LN/LV planes which I completely understand. My suggestion would be to find some serviceable older planes and stay away from the the "new" Woodcraft (Groz/Stanely) offerings.

[Mark Bergman]

Steve Knight of Knight Toolworks makes fantastic planes and has been known to offer his brand new smoothing planes on e-bay with no reserve prices set. I have seen them sell for $50-$60 which makes them IMHO the absolute best bargains by far in all of planedom. Ready to use out the box, although a little honing of the blade never hurts.

[Maurice Metzger]

James, if you do decide to look on eBay, my experience has been that the best place to look is in the:

Collectibles->Tools, Hardware & Locks->Tools->Carpentry, Woodworking->Planes

area, not in the regular tools area. You'll be competing against collectors, which is a drawback, but the quality of what is offered is better.

Disclaimer:

Oops, just realized, I'm selling a couple of planes in that very area on eBay, so I'm not totally a disinterested observer.

- Maurice

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Personally, I'd go for a plane that's already been tuned by a fellow galoot OR a modern Steve Knight, LN, Veritas or Clifton.

I happened to start (not very long ago) with two modern Record planes (bought new several years ago), which weren't that hard to tune up. However, they're no longer made.

[Michael Fross]

I would start with picking up an older stanley plane. My first plane (not counting the Buck Brothers I returned 1 min after purchasing it) was a pre-WWII stanley sweetheart #4 smoother. It took a little work flatening the sole and I did replace the blade with a Hock blade.

I found it on ebay. I bid on quite a few before I actually won one that didn't go over my price limit.

Best of luck. If you have questions about tuning, Garrett Hack's Plane Book is invaluable.

Michael

[Maurice Metzger]

Mike, I'm interested in your recommendation - do you feel a cabinet scraper is superior to a smooth plane? For some reason I assumed the plane would give a better finish.

I use a card scraper but have never used a #80 or the LV equivalent.

Thanks,
Maurice

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Maurice,

My feeling was that as James has a specific interest and with a desire to limit financial expenditure. About the only plane or type of plane which would suit a wide array of woods and situations, coupled with the stated goal of limiting the use of sandpaper, is a scraper.

Ideally a scraper plane, the best bang for the buck being the LV, but felt that would also be out due to its cost.

So, a #80 in the wild can be had for resonable, and failing finding one, at about $47 is a great value.

But I also feel that its use can be enhanced by a quality block plane, which the LV is about the size of a #3, and with the additional ball tail or the forthcoming rear handle, can be used very effectively as either a small smoother or a block plane. For instance, about the quickest way to rid a board's edge of jointer marks is a block plane. Set for a light cut and being careful not to tilt the plane, it will not alter the just-jointed surface. It is much quicker than sanding an edge and leaves a crisp glue surface or a good edge for future shaping.

And as card scraper are inexpensive and so versatile, I also added them. So for a total investment of about $160, those three tools can reduce quite a bit of sanding.

Ideally, one wold find a few vintage planes. But in the end they would probably not work as easily over a variety of woods.

Well, that was my thinking. It's based upon the fact I have what Chris Schwarz calls "the blended shop." A mix of power tools and hand tools. There are many projects that other than joinery [chisels and joinery planes] or decoration [beading, chamfer or H&Rs], I don't use any hand tools save a scraper and/or a block plane.

Hope this actually answered your question. Well, I see it really didn't. Superior: hand plane vs. scraper. In part it depends on the wood and the goal. I use a lot of figured wood. Sometimes a scraper is the only cutting tool that will tame the surface. Sometimes I can sail through with just a plane for surface preperation. Sometimes neither beats sandpaper.

Take care, Mike

[Doug Ketellapper]

I have to disagree with the Anant plane. I bought a #4 from Highland Hardware before I knew any better. I have a hard time finding anything right with it other than it looks pretty. The frog on mine is horribly machined. With the blade seated on the frog I have a strong 16th of an inch gap on each side. It's so far out of shape it's not worth even trying to get to fit well. Luckily I already owned a Lie Nielsen block plane so I knew what a good plane could do. I've since purchased and refurbished several old planes, mostly Stanley and Sargent, but some other brands in there too. I think money is MUCH better spent (if you can't afford Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley) getting one of these older planes, fixing them up, and adding an aftermarket iron from Hock, Lie Nielsen, or Lee Valley than buying a modern Stanley, Anant, or Groz plane. I would also try to find someone locally that could show you how to set a plane up for use. I wish I had done that. I spent way too many frustrating hours before I got good performance. In addition to the plane you'll have to be able to sharpen it, and that's a whole other ball of wax...

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I'm glad you said it -- our school has several Anant planes, as does another student. Personally, my modern Stanleys are better (I have a couple, though most of mine are older).

The woman with the Anant plane has spent 5 (of 10) classes fettling her plane.... Hasn't even bought her wood for her project yet.

[Mike Wenzloff]

I think much is made of fettling a plane for use--and rightly so. It needs to be reasonably flat, the frog/body needs to fit well.

Too, a Hock replacement blade is a great addition, if for no other reason than the thicker blade is perhaps easier to hone.

But--there's always a but when someone starts out so agreeable <g>--if someone "needs" to spend longer than 30 minutes making something other than a fine smoother ready for working with, either they have greater expectations of the plane than need be, or they are going about it wrong.

Every vintage plane, regardless of maker, is bought in a state that it can be made to work better. Great. I agree. But I believe we take them much further toward a state of perfection they were never intended to be, nor need be. Just how did all that furniture get made with planes in such a poor condition, anyway?

Even using a stock blade and chip breaker, any plane is capable of taking .002" shavings in less than 30 minutes. This is a much finer shaving than is required for anything than a fine smoother.

I've used this term, fine smoother, a couple times. So what do I mean? I mean something that on most woods I can skip sanding if I am so inclined. I have never needed to spend more than 1 hour on a modern plane to make it consistently take a .001" shaving, and those attending plane tune-up classes where I have been involved never longer than a couple hours and part of that was shootin' the breeze as to why they were doing what they were doing. But this is only "necessary" for a fine smoother.

We, as plane fettlers in a modern enlightened society, seek making our planes into some state where we measure tolerances of soles with feeler gages on granite surface plates. It's all a bunch of hooey.

I think one of the sad things in this thread is that a teacher allowed someone to spend precious time dinking around with a plane for half the available class schedule. Another is that James may well think we are all nuts and avoid planes like the plague due to how much work is involved in even making a plane from the "golden era" into something "usable."

Ok. I've said my peace. My token shot in the dark. Maybe even a bit of dark-sider heresy.

Take care, Mike