Electrical issue

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Rob

LOL! I was expecting yet another correction from Mr. Rob "NEC" Russell but I guess this time, I learned correctly (and most importantly, remembered correctly) and thus received, shall I say, adulation?!

[Rob Russell]

LOL! I was expecting yet another correction from Mr. Rob "NEC" Russell but I guess this time, I learned correctly (and most importantly, remembered correctly) and thus received, shall I say, adulation?!

"adulation" ... ackkkk, cough, choke ... something's stuck in my throat ... can we just go with "ya done good"?

BTW, back-stabbed vs. back-wired isn't an NEC issue, it's more of a device quality issue.

[Jim Benante]

Well I hope to buy the replacement outlets this evening. I haven't had time the past few days. I am training for a charity bike tour. It is called the MS 150 and is set up to gathe research funds for multiple sclerosis research. 150 miles in two days. The past 3 weekends I have given up a full day to riding. And I ride about twice during the week before (commute to work) or after work (group rides). I also am doing a small 2 story addition to the house. I hate when little things go wrong when you want to focus on the big project that you started and fear you won't finish before the wet winter starts here in WA. In addition, I have a 1 year old son and the suspect outlets are in his room so late night home repair (only time I seem to have available) is out of the question. I am definitley over extended, but I can say I am enjoying the hectic summer anyway.

I'll let you know how the replacement outlets work out. And maybe I'll post some pics of my addition in a new thread. I finished the concrete work last week. Footer, wall, and slab are in place and waiting for me to figure out the framing that will rest on it.

[Jim Benante]

Okay, I replaced two outlets which are between the panel and the microwave. Now I get like 6 Volts. I had forgot to mention that this is where I had left off after the redo of the old plugs. So my outlet reader thingy says hot/ground reverse. They are not reversed. I have one more outlet that could be effecting the situation that I will change next. How did I go from open neutral to hot/ground reverse when everything I can see is the same wiring that worked for over a year with no hiccups. I am confused. I'll try the last outlet tomorrow. Could it be the old light fixture that is also on the circuit. It is about 20 years old and has aluminum foil inside of it. I wanted to replace when I painted the boys room, but my wife likes old things.

[Randy Meijer]

An old pilots saying is "trust your instruments." If your tester says you have a reversed hot/ground, I would assume that it is true and that you have missed something. This is getting very close to the point where you need to call in an electrician unless you are very confident in your electrical skills and are satisfied that this is a problem you can handle. A reversed hot/ground is not good!!

If it were me, I would disconnect every wire to every switch, light and receptacle on the circuit and start from scratch.
(I assume that you have checked your other circuits and they all check out OK?) You might also want to check the attic or basement for any junction boxes in this circuit that might have a wire connection that is failing or incorrect. You might also want to check for any damage to the wiring that may have been caused by rats or squirrels.

Then I would rewire each component...one at a time... starting with the one closest to the breaker box(electrically) and test it thoroughly. Add and test components, one at a time, until you get to the point where the tester says there is a problem. By then, you should have enough information to determine what the problem is.

From your comment about the light, I'm assuming yours is an older house. Years ago, I had some funny things going on at my older home that I couldn't get a handle on and it turned out to be a bad connection in the neutral conductor of the drop coming from the electric company. Symptoms were not similar to yours; but a poor neutral can cause all sorts of funny stuff. Just something to keep in the back of your mind. I think that if you take a systematic approach to troubleshooting your problem, a solution will be forthcoming. Good luck!!

[Randy Meijer]

Okay, I replaced two outlets which are between the panel and the microwave. Now I get like 6 Volts. I had forgot to mention that this is where I had left off after the redo of the old plugs. So my outlet reader thingy says hot/ground reverse. They are not reversed. I have one more outlet that could be effecting the situation that I will change next. How did I go from open neutral to hot/ground reverse when everything I can see is the same wiring that worked for over a year with no hiccups. I am confused. I'll try the last outlet tomorrow. Could it be the old light fixture that is also on the circuit. It is about 20 years old and has aluminum foil inside of it. I wanted to replace when I painted the boys room, but my wife likes old things.

Is the 6 volts at the new outlets or at the microwave or both??

Is the light up or downstream from the two new outlets?? Is it burning brightly when you turn it on??

What does the 1 year comment mean? Has this circuit been reworked??

[Kent Fitzgerald]

Jim, the problem still most likely an open neutral, in which case the flaky test readings aren't at all surprising. Do you have any loads plugged into the affected circuit? That would throw your readings out of whack.

It's also possible that you're seeing "phantom" voltages. In AC circuits, a disconnected conductor can act like an antenna, and carry a tiny but measurable (with a sensitive digital meter) current. Likewise, the "hot/ground reverse" indication on the receptacle tester just means that a voltage is present between the neutral and ground - not necessarily a physical reversal of the wires. The neon bulbs in the tester are sensitive enough to pick up a phantom voltage on the neutral.

Unfortunately, you're back to step 1 on solving the problem. Definitely check the connections at all the remaining fixtures on the circuit. If that doens't solve it, you may have a broken wire, which is harder to find and fix. Most likely spot for a break is right where wires enter the fixture boxes. Have you done any drilling in the walls recently that could have hit a wire?

[Jim Benante]

Jim, the problem still most likely an open neutral, in which case the flaky test readings aren't at all surprising. Do you have any loads plugged into the affected circuit? That would throw your readings out of whack.

It's also possible that you're seeing "phantom" voltages. In AC circuits, a disconnected conductor can act like an antenna, and carry a tiny but measurable (with a sensitive digital meter) current. Likewise, the "hot/ground reverse" indication on the receptacle tester just means that a voltage is present between the neutral and ground - not necessarily a physical reversal of the wires. The neon bulbs in the tester are sensitive enough to pick up a phantom voltage on the neutral.

Kent you got it right. It was an in fact an open neutral at a different outlet. The circuit tester must be as sensitive as you stated to be showing hot/ground reverse. I am no electrician, but I knew I would never screw up that bad to reverse the hot and ground.

I was misreading the direction of the circuit and so the one outlet I hadn't checked was actually pre-funny stuff outlets. It was a back stabbed(no bolt to screw in to hold it in place) vs. back wired. A neutral popped loose. Not sure why after a year it pooped out, but it was no longer stabbed into the back of the outlet. I replaced the outlets with the back wired types and all is well.

Thanks for all the advice and help. No longer do we need the spare microwave taking up valuable counter space.

Jim

[Kent Fitzgerald]

Glad to hear it's fixed!

[Chris Padilla]

Awesome! "need a THUMB-UP" sticky here!

[Randy Meijer]