Lee Valley Magnetic Dovetail Saw Guide

[Derek Cohen]

I certainly hope that the following is not taken as a personal flaming.

To begin with the bottom line, this is the handtools forum and we are responding to a handtools question. The response/recommendation should avoid being to use a power tool, although it is reasonable to add that this is an alternative method.

The fact is that there are many, many ways to skin a rabbet. Some we agree with, others not. What we need to avoid is being dogmatic about one point of view. This is a discussion board.

The reason I was supportive of the LV Guide is that it will help a novice enter new territory. He wants to use hand tools, so what can be done to foster this interest, maintain enthusiasm in the face of learning a difficult skill, and provide a path to more advanced skills. Do we, instead, toss him in at the deep end or say that he should not even consider the venture?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I certainly hope that the following is not taken as a personal flaming.

To begin with the bottom line, this is the handtools forum and we are responding to a handtools question. The response/recommendation should avoid being to use a power tool, although it is reasonable to add that this is an alternative method.

The fact is that there are many, many ways to skin a rabbet. Some we agree with, others not. What we need to avoid is being dogmatic about one point of view. This is a discussion board.

The reason I was supportive of the LV Guide is that it will help a novice enter new territory. He wants to use hand tools, so what can be done to foster this interest, maintain enthusiasm in the face of learning a difficult skill, and provide a path to more advanced skills. Do we, instead, toss him in at the deep end or say that he should not even consider the venture?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Good points Derek, I think it really depends on the person. I have been tossed into the deep end all my life! At 5 years of age, my grandfather took me for a little boat ride just off shore of the lake, he said "Stuart, do you know how to swim?" I replied "Nope" and he tossed me into the lake

Learned how to swim that day

I showed up in Japan with some money and a few names of people at the Aikido Dojo, and that was it.

The point is, some people need/want training wheels, some don't, for the record, my dad bought a beat up old CCM Mustang bike for my older brother and I to learn on, no training wheels, once we could ride that, we got a nice new bike.

The main thing is, that we should all do what we feel comfortable with, but I think, as a group, we should also encourage people to let go of the training wheels

Cheers!

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Hans, I used to have one of these, but I sold it when I no longer found it helpful for me (plus I'd just bought a spiffy dovetail saw). It can help you learn how to hold the saw though, and that's useful.

(Another non-owner of a table saw, fwiw.)

[Rob Lee]

Hi All

I was just wondering if anybody out there has experience with the LV magnetic saw guide for cutting dovetails. I just got one recently and love it. Do you think it's kinda cheating? Still need to be very careful to place the guide EXACTLY in the right place, but it sure eliminates the problem of sawing straight. Makes it much more likely to get a good result. I guess it's a bit like getting a calculator instead of learning the times tables, but I really like getting the right answer!


Hans

Hi Hans -

I don't think it's cheating.... using whatever it takes to get whatever you're doing finished to the quality level you want is all that's important. As with any tool - it'll be appropriate for some, and not for others...

Before we introduced the 90 degree version - I had resisted it (read "blocked") in our R&D queue.... that is, until I heard from a customer with hand tremors who asked for one so that he could continue woodworking... that's what pushed it into the market.

When evaluating tools - it's easy to forget that not every woodworker has the same capabilities - or capacity for skill development...

Our focus has always been to put out things that work, and the information necessary for you decide if it works for you...

Cheers -

Rob

[Bob Smalser]

...I was more surprised than anything to see your response Bob, it seems you're typically confused why folks would buy new tools, or spend un-needed money on tools when they can get cheaper and often better old tools. Seems an old Disston would work just dandy. Seeing you reccomend using a table saw to cut a dovetail joint was a bit of a surprise...

...To begin with the bottom line, this is the handtools forum and we are responding to a handtools question...

Y'all don't get it, do you?



Hand tools forsooth. What's the difference between buying and using every ridiculous inert and powered gizmo that comes down the pike....from simple jigs to fancy Tormeks and the like....and using a more efficient power tool from the getgo?



Answer: Not a whole lot. Nothing wrong with training wheels providing you grow beyond them....and frankly, I don't see very much of that in "hand" tool forums.

[Mike Wenzloff]

...The main thing is, that we should all do what we feel comfortable with, but I think, as a group, we should also encourage people to let go of the training wheels

How one views a jig or workholding device varies from person to person--is a jig a crutch or is it a device to be utilized?

I have had experience with the LV DT saw guide. It works and works well.

It really amazes me that people look down on using such a device, whether overtly or subtly. And yet, how many people, if this type of question had been asked in the powertool forum--for instance, which DT jig should I buy--would recommend one of the dozens of router jigs, or even the bandsaw or tablesaw to cut DTs?

Heck, freehand them using a router. Be a real woodworker. I have done this when my PC Omnijig was too limiting. I have used a TS and BS as well. Both with fences and in the case of the TS, a miter gauge--both for controlling the cut. They are jigs of one nature or another. This is really no different than a guided handsaw device such as the LV DT guide.

Like Derek wrote, this is a handtool forum, the question is as regards a handtool method. My opinion about the guide is that it works, so if one wishes to use it, great. If not, then develop other methods, powered or hand, and make joints.

Take care, Mike

Oh. In the interest of full disclosure, I do own a TS. It is in the storage shed in the back of the property. I think it still works...

[Mike Wenzloff]

Y'all don't get it, do you?

Hand tools forsooth. What's the difference between buying and using every ridiculous inert and powered gizmo that comes down the pike....from simple jigs to fancy Tormeks and the like....and using a more efficient power tool from the getgo?

Answer: Not a whole lot.

Well, Bob. You don't get it.

Your replies, both of them, are highly appropriate had the OP asked about powered means.

But the OP asked a simple question, in the appropriate forum, about a handtool device. It wasn't about production efficiencies.

Take care, Mike

[Bob Smalser]

Heck, freehand them using a router. Be a real woodworker.

Use a router freehand?



OK How 'bout one more difficult?



It's about woodworking, and the part hand tools play. It's also about learning the craft, and as I said, some training wheels are counterproductive.

[Mike Wenzloff]

But the point is, Bob, there are jigs you use rather than freehand. Where one draws the line between calling "devices" jigs or crutches is a personal decision. It is when they apply their personal choice to another it may not be appropriate.

I too do not believe handtools should be pitted against powertools. One can have both and choose between them. But, once again, the OP asked about a guided handsaw option, not the best PT option. The choice had been made.

So it seems now the question is, do we help the person or tell them they are all wrong?

Take care, Mike
who is now done going off-topic.

[Mark Singer]

The use of the LV guide if thought of as a training guide may be the most useful. If you are using it be sensitive to the angle of the saw....think of it as a learning tool that you will leave behind at some point.....how does the grip feel when it holds the blade verticle....it may help to train your hand and eye to feelng the corect position. It cannot help with many joints that are very good to saw by hand. To be a good woodworker , handsawing is an important skill and should be practiced. It is a great feeling to know you can mae a joint using handsaws if you want. Often I perfer them to my tablesaw or bandsaw.....sometimes the power tools seem more appropriate....it is nice to have the option and the LV guide will only take you so far.....if you rely on it soley , you quickly reach the end of the road and will always fear you will mess up a joint if you try sawing it by hand....that is why practice will help you improve and add one more important skill to your tool chest....I feel an important one ( and I love power tools also)

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Before we introduced the 90 degree version - I had resisted it (read "blocked") in our R&D queue.... that is, until I heard from a customer with hand tremors who asked for one so that he could continue woodworking... that's what pushed it into the market.

When evaluating tools - it's easy to forget that not every woodworker has the same capabilities - or capacity for skill development...

Wow, Rob, thanks for putting it into perspective. Also, thanks for making such a cool gadget.

[Alan DuBoff]

Hand tools forsooth. What's the difference between buying and using every ridiculous inert and powered gizmo that comes down the pike....from simple jigs to fancy Tormeks and the like....and using a more efficient power tool from the getgo?

...

Answer: Not a whole lot. Nothing wrong with training wheels providing you grow beyond them....and frankly, I don't see very much of that in "hand" tool forums.

I know that I don't get it, I rarely get things the way your myopic posts are typed. However, I really think that you're missing the big picture. For some like me this is a hobby. I enjoy it for what it is, and I work wood at the pace and style I prefer. You often make condencending remarks towards users of this and other forums, and belittle folks for doing anything that varies from your way.

I have continued to have differences with you over this fact of having an open mind, and you continue to look down on woodworkers that don't do things the way you do.

In the past I admired your articles, but now I take your comments with a large grain of salt, and realize there are many ways to work wood. A lot of people work wood here, and some encourage them to do so. Your comments about nobody doing anything (except for yourself that is;-) are the same type of condecending remarks I've seen from you in other posts.

Seeing you reccomend a table saw to cut a dovetail in the hand tool forum is just irony.

I will remind you, all people work wood differently. All people are interested in woodworking for a different reason

I would like to thank you for something though. By understanding your way, it has actually allowed me to get along better with my kids. It has reminded me to be open to other's view and that my way of doing things is not always the best way for them. I have learned to at least be open minded to listen to the way my kids might think of doing something, it might actually be a better solution in the end.

I hope you don't treat your children the same way you treat the members of this and other forums. If so, I offer my sorrow to them.

I will continue to learn more about working wood, and as I do so I will try to share some of it with others. Much of this involves using hand tools, wether it be how you like me to do it or not, I am doing it for myself in the end. Please try to have a friendlier view of working wood, and please do help folks. Maybe one day folks like me will enjoy reading the articles you've done in the past, once again. I rarely use them as reference anymore, even though you have so many of them, just because of your personality in forums like this one. There are plenty of other solutions and articles that offer more constructive idea and approach working wood with an open mind.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Amen, Alan. Personally, I like the peace, quiet, and extra space afforded me by not having a table saw.

[Ian Gillis]

For something to be a 'cheat' there have to be rules. The only hard and fast rules in woodworking should be the ones that concern your health and safety. I'm trying to bring my dovetail skills back to where they were 20 yrs ago. I decided not to buy that jig from LV because my goal is skill development.

My personal 'rules' tell me to invest the time and material required to get the result I want. I admit to being a bit masochistic in this, but like the guy who hits himself repeatedly with a hammer - it feels so damn good when it's over.

Use the jig - make some joints. If you ever get bored with your dovetails, there's nothing stopping you from going freehand. As Dierdre said, you'll have learned how to hold and move the saw.

Rules schmoolz! The only rule in here is that we do it with hand tools. In your workshop you can cut them any old way you like, though.

Cheers

IG

[Maurice Metzger]

Sure do, Frank, I couldn't get through the day without them. I put them in my aluminum foil hat to stop the alien transmissions...

Cheers,
Maurice