The "organic" era and what is really organic?

[Joe Mioux]

You might actually want to study wood allergies more then artifical chemical stuff.

Many woods contain all sorts of chemicals, thats why Cedar smells like it does. These chemicals are produced by the tree to repel bugs and fungus attacks, and some can be fairly toxic, especially if you have an allergic reaction. We have a weed killer here in NZ thats actually made from concentrated chemicals extracted from pine needles. Organic, yes, toxic.. well it sure is to weeds, and I'm not going to start drinking the stuff.


Ian

Ian, you reminded me of something... I use Nicotine in my greenhouses to kill insects. Nicotine is a naturally produced product. The nicotine I use can kill a cat if left inside the sealed the greenhouse within a matter of 4 or 5 hours.

Joe

[Jarrod Nelson]

My wife likes to buy organic food for the kids. I question the value, and it costs a little extra, but I don't argue. My kids are worth it.

Then, the other day, I found my 2 year old in the neighbor's flower garden eating the dirt. He probably has more Miracle Grow in him now then he could have ever accumulated in 100 years of eating non-organic foods.

All that hard work by my wife down the drain. So far the 2 year hold hasn't started glowing or growing extra limbs.

[Richard Blaine]

The nicotine I use can kill a cat if left inside the sealed the greenhouse within a matter of 4 or 5 hours.

Joe

Don't forget about what it can do to you.

[Chris Barton]

Ok, organic, that's easy. Any compound that contains carbon is organic. No carbon and it's inorganic. I seem to remember that from chemistry. Remember, water is inorganic. Is that an undesireable thing?

[Robert Mickley]

Ok, organic, that's easy. Any compound that contains carbon is organic. No carbon and it's inorganic. I seem to remember that from chemistry. Remember, water is inorganic. Is that an undesireable thing?

When it comes to a bath, my dogs think so

[Curt Harms]

Welcome Carlos,

..... Now they are controlled by a little German beatle that looks similar to a ladybug but pinches you and invades your home every fall in droves.

Still better than those nasty worms that turn into the moths.

Thanks Charles! I've wondered where those little rascals came from!! Now to find a critter that is as fond of Emerald Ash Borers as I am of Lobstah!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/indexNet.htm
Oh though since the USDA has gotten involved they have reduced the requirements. USDA certified organic doens't mean jack

Thanks for the link, learn something new every day
Apparantly the so called regulations have only one set of teeth: you can't use the USDA seal if your products are non-compliant
"The USDA seal may not be affixed to any ‘100 percent organic’ or ‘organic’ product until 18 months after the final rule’s effective date."
From: >>http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/PolicyStatements/StreamofCommerce.html<<

Second,
is it a law? NO. But it is a leagaly binding contract and it can darn sure cost you money in court. So its just as effective. In fact it could be more effective

Well yes if you bother to get certified and use the USDA label and execute the agreement. But what about products that you wouldn't ever put a USDA label on like wood products. This especially as wood workers don't pursue food stuff certification and don't execute agreements.

So long as they aren't using the USDA label, I think they can make any organic claim at all and the only exposure they have is as to harms experienced by the customers.

Of course the same rules apply as they do in any tort litigation: The complainant must show a bona fide harm not merely a dissapointment. Being angry about an imagined misrepresentation entitles on to a refund at best. Remember barring death or other serious injury no one is ever going to spend the money to have a broad spectrum analysis of a wood product.

Three
yes you could, But your opening yourself up to a liability case. Some folks are allergic to some chemical residues.

Yes indeed. However. those same liabilities inhere (and to the same degree) whether you label it "Organic" or "WARNING WILL ROBINSON," or no label at all. If you poison your customers you are on thin ice.

Four
See 1, also some states have strict organic certifications. Indiana is one.

I wonder whether those are strictly as to food products. People consuming food are the most likely class of cunsumers contemplated by any statutes. I haven't read 'em so I am shooting in the dark.

For the most part its an honor thing, some associattions are stricter than others. Your right that there are a lot of things that are technicly organic that you would not want to ingest.

Yah but all my remarks are entirely as to a wood product not as to food, which is the reason behind my glib tone. We aren't intending to eat the wood rub it on our skin or brush our teeth with it. In fact the only place where I see any issue would be when making food prep and serving items from wood.

surfing the web for Maple Syrup the other day I came across a whole lot of "Organic" Syrup producers.
Now I know a little about maple trees and they take a little more than a few years to become meanginful sap producers. It got me to wondering how much these "organic" producers could possibly know about their ancient maple groves. I am guessing they don't know anything at all about the history of the groves except they bought 'em lock stock and barrel and haven't been spraying them etc., for some period.
How that can qualify as "organic" is beyond me as I have picked up fist sized chunks of arsenic used by older north country potato farmers to kill the beetles. I'd bet the old guys protected their trees in similar ways. Those trees are standing today 60 - 120 years later. And now the same trees are producing "organic" sap???

I'd be willing to bet money that any trees large enough to be worth harvesting are so old that they pre-date any notions about organic farming.

I say If the customer wants a wood product with a label that says "organic" then get a brand and brand the items organic and be done with it.
After all wood is organic.
The plain meaning of the word is inescapable.
Just don't use the USDA label.

[Robert Mickley]

Yah but all my remarks are entirely as to a wood product not as to food, which is the reason behind my glib tone. We aren't intending to eat the wood rub it on our skin or brush our teeth with it. In fact the only place where I see any issue would be when making food prep and serving items from wood.

You should see some of the kidds in this family, I can bbet you they will be tasting it

surfing the web for Maple Syrup the other day I came across a whole lot of "Organic" Syrup producers.
Now I know a little about maple trees and they take a little more than a few years to become meanginful sap producers. It got me to wondering how much these "organic" producers could possibly know about their ancient maple groves. I am guessing they don't know anything at all about the history of the groves except they bought 'em lock stock and barrel and haven't been spraying them etc., for some period.
How that can qualify as "organic" is beyond me as I have picked up fist sized chunks of arsenic used by older north country potato farmers to kill the beetles. I'd bet the old guys protected their trees in similar ways. Those trees are standing today 60 - 120 years later. And now the same trees are producing "organic" sap???

I'd be willing to bet money that any trees large enough to be worth harvesting are so old that they pre-date any notions about organic farming.
Just don't use the USDA label.

Actually organic farming goes back further than chemical farming, problem is we just got away from it.

As for the trees, I couldn't tell you. I know that to take ground from chemical to organic, the first two years you raise it organic and sell on the chemical market, third year is your transition year where you can label it chemical free, fourth year you label it organic. OCIA has done extensive testing that shows foreign chemicals introduced in a farming aspect are gone in this amount of time.

I have no idea how long it would be residual in a tree.
Just to clear up a bit, my brother Does NOT use a USDA organic label. Simply because thier guidelines are so loose compared to OCIA's. People who are die hard organic buyers know this and tend to shy away from USDA certified stuff because of their loose playing of the rules.

Of course the same rules apply as they do in any tort litigation: The complainant must show a bona fide harm not merely a dissapointment. Being angry about an imagined misrepresentation entitles on to a refund at best. Remember barring death or other serious injury no one is ever going to spend the money to have a broad spectrum analysis of a wood product.

Actually I don't think you would have to actually show harm, there is always the false advertisement angle. OF coures I'm not a lawyer so I could be wrong, and I did not stay at a holiday inn express last night

My origional post

The problemn is even a small sawmill gets their logs from all over. If it's that big of a concern I say find a small mill with kiln dried lumber and don't worry about it.

notice that even though I'm a big sponsor of organic products I told him to find a small mill and don't sweat it

[Carlos Chiossone]

Then, the other day, I found my 2 year old in the neighbor's flower garden eating the dirt. He probably has more Miracle Grow in him now then he could have ever accumulated in 100 years of eating non-organic foods.

All that hard work by my wife down the drain. So far the 2 year hold hasn't started glowing or growing extra limbs.

Jarrod you have given me the best laugh all day. I have been fortunate not to witness that on my kids. But you never know! So now you need to make sure to eat organic and use my toys so you don't go over the threshold set by your kid

c