Waterstones vs sandpaper

[Philip Duffy]

What a great discussion! I have never used water stones and have a real commitment to "scary sharp" but it seems to me from the comments that both systems have great value. And, the most important thing is; everything gets a great edge and that is a joy to see and use. Thanks to all, Phil

[Don Naples]

Cons:
Sandpaper
1. A fresh paper definitely cuts faster, it sharply looses speed in the beginging but stabalizes after 4-6 sharpenings.
2. You have to buy new paper periodically.
3. Can't use them free hand (atleast I can't) even small variations in angle can gouge the paper rendering it useless. With freehand you can only pull, no can do push stroke.
4. The gluing process has to be done with care, either spray glue or the best option is to buy pre-glued sheets.

The paper cutting faster is most usere of Scary Sharp use Silicon Carbide paper. It is a very hard mineral that breaks down quickly. The Wet or Dry paper does not have the grit consistency of Aluminum Oxide Micro Finishing Film, a better choice for the Scary Sharp method. Note that Silicon Carbide is used for Nonferrous metals. It woks great on aluninum, but not well on steel. You quickly lose the cutting action and begin to burnish the tool, so it gets shiny, but not sharp. If you have a tool that is flat and near sharp, then a few swipes on SiC will get an edge back before it fails to cut. If you want to flatten the back of a plane iron, Aluminum Oxide is a better choice. This is why waterstones are a better choice over SiC paper.
Silicon Carbide http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/university/winter2000/glossary.asp
A synthetic abrasive discovered in the late 1800s, which is harder than aluminum oxide. Used in green and black forms, which are distinguished by levels of purity, silicon carbide is typically applied to nonferrous applications. The sharp and easily fractured abrasive grains are also used in nonmetal applications such as the wood and leather industries.
Don

[John Kain]

just curious, I am using lee valley combination 1000/4000 waterstones.
anyone know if Norton's are faster ?

Brian, sorry I have never tried sandpaper do I can't compare.

Howie

I think they are the same in my experience. I started with a Norton 1000 grit, somehow lost it, then purchased the LV 1000/4000. I usually use a horizontal wet grinder to start with really dull blades. But for touching up a blade after some use, I just use the LV guide and the 1000/4000. It takes about 2 minutes.

I leave the stone in water in a tupperware dish at all times. Just makes things easier.

[Wilbur Pan]

Waterstones
1. Requires a water source.
2. High initial cost.
3. Needs a bigger storage space, almost a dedicated sharpening area is required.
4. Needs some upfront planning, i.e. you can't pll them off the shelf and start sharpening, you have to soak them for a while before you can use them. Some people keep them permanently in a bucket of water, which further increases the storage space requirements.
5. Needs a water source, and creates a clay slurry that needs cleaning.
6. Needs flattening.

Zahid,

Whatever people might think about the costs of the Shapton stones, one big advantage of them is that they don't need the same type of care as other waterstones. The Shaptons do not need soaking or storage in water to work. In fact, the recommendation is that they not be stored in water. They also don't really depend on forming a slurry to work well. All you need to do is throw some water on the top of the waterstone and you're good to go.

My water source is a bucket that I fill before sharpening. I've rigged up a tray with deep sides with a small board that sits over the top with a stop that the waterstone sits against. I take a small cup to pour fresh water from the bucket over the waterstone, and the excess falls into the tray, which I eventually dump.

I have been using sandpaper for aggressive sharpening, such as getting nicks out of plane blades or chisels. But I find that I can easily go through 2 full sheets of sandpaper to do this.

[Mike Henderson]

I have Norton stones and Shapton stones. I don't store any of them in water. When I want to sharpen, I spread out a vinyl mat that's about 2 feet square (2'x2'). I lay out my stones and spray them with water from a spray bottle. It takes me a few minutes to finish getting everything set up so the water soaks in.

I bought the Norton stones before the Shapton stones - maybe a year before - and had been using King stones before the Nortons. I had heard really good things about Shapton so I was expecting them to work well. My disappointment was that they did not cut any better (faster) than the Norton stones and they require flattening about as often as the Norton stones. They also have some "quirks" that it takes time to learn about. For example, you don't want to flatten them with something too smooth. If you do, you'll "polish" the stone and it then doesn't cut well.

Anyway, if I have to buy any stones in the future, I'll probalby go with the Nortons because of the cost/performance.

Mike

[Brian Hale]

Thanks for the excellent input!! You guys are great!

My sandpaper routine starts with 400 grit wet-or-dry and then 600 grit wet-or-dry before going to the micro finishing sheets that LV sells and i find the wet-or-dry sheets wear out faster than the micros by about 4 to 1. My blades come out quite sharp, much sharper than what i achieved on oil stones.

The other day i was trying to flatten the back of an abused 1 1/4" Marples chisel and went through 4 400 grit sheets before i tried of the process, which is what prompted this post. Also, most every sharpening video I've seen is using waterstones to go from rough to sharp and it looked quite fast.

I guess it's like most things in WW, waterstones are another means to achieve the end result. Perhaps i'll pick up a basic set and see what i can learn. What do you think...... 800 1000 4000 and 8000?

Brian

[John Viola]

Brian-my first exposure to the sandpaper method was an interview with Mike Dunbar in FWW back in 2000. It never occurred to me to use sandpaper prior to that. FWIW his setup is 80, 120, and 320 grit AlOx paper, followed up w/600 gr SiC. Occasionally he said he'd go to 1000 or 2000 grit. I've tried that progression and darned if it doesn't work really well with minimal fuss.

for fixing that abused 1 1/2 chisel, take the grit way low-like down to 80-and work from there. It may not be sharpening nirvana, but it works and that's what counts.

Again FWIW, for flattening chisels and plan irons (and for fixing nicks), I use the above listed sandpaper progression. For honing, I use a 2000 grit shapton and (I think) an 8000 grit King. I don't like the King and will replace it with a Shapton when I think about it. Like maybe right now!

[Howie French]

..I flatten my King waterstones (800, 1200, 8000) between blades on drywall screen. The sandpaper gets glued to a 10mm thick sheet of glass, which lies on top of three layers of MDF, which lies on my bench top.

Derek, I also flatten my stones with drywall screen on a piece of MDF.
I am new to waterstones and I figured this was a cheap way to flatten
my stones. I think it works pretty well but I have nothing to compare it to.

It is nice to hear someone with your experience uses this method as well.



Howie

[Ken Bryant]

My shop also has no water, but I've never found that a problem. I just hold my Norton stones out the window.

[Bryan Lord]

I have both and also a Tormek. The vast majority of the time I use only sandpaper. I have a marble slab made for rolliing out pastry that I put spray on glue on six 1/2 sheets of sandpaper. So when shapening or honing it is very quick. Faster than the stones. If I've damaged a blade then I start with the Tormek.

[jonathan snyder]

Hi folks,

I too use sandpaper. I have never tried water stones. I use the micro-abrasive films from LV for honing. For reshaping I have found that the 3M Sandblaster paper at coarser grits cuts much faster and lasts longer than wet/dry paper.

Derek,
That is the shiniest plane blade back I have ever seen. Just curious, what grits to you work through and are you using wet/dry paper?

Thanks
Jonathan

[Monte Milanuk]

Brian,

I know what you mean. After slaving away for hours (literally) on wet-dry paper flattening the backs on some Stanley butt chisels, various hand plane irons and soles I've had about enough of Scary Sharp, even if water stones have to be mail-ordered and are messier. Watching a couple xmas-present DVD's of Rob Crosman and Frank Klausz sharpening... especially watching Mr. Klausz whip a new Marples chisel into shaving sharp in what seems like under ten minutes total... makes me wonder if there is some serious editing due to time constraints, or are waterstones really that much faster?

Monte

[John Schreiber]

I haven't tried water stones, but as a scary sharp practitioner, I'd like to repeat the advice which someone gave above. Use rough grit when necessary. I do initial flattening with 80 grit many times and have even used 50 grit to change the shape of a tool. If I had to do this with 400 paper, I think I would still be at it.

My problem is that I can't find paper which is consistent in its characteristics all the way through the range. For instance, the 600 grit silicon carbide I'm using now makes the face of the bevel smooth enough to shave in, but when I get to 2000 grit, the edge is better, but the surface isn't as mirror smooth.

[Mike Henderson]

Brian,

I know what you mean. After slaving away for hours (literally) on wet-dry paper flattening the backs on some Stanley butt chisels, various hand plane irons and soles I've had about enough of Scary Sharp, even if water stones have to be mail-ordered and are messier. Watching a couple xmas-present DVD's of Rob Crosman and Frank Klausz sharpening... especially watching Mr. Klausz whip a new Marples chisel into shaving sharp in what seems like under ten minutes total... makes me wonder if there is some serious editing due to time constraints, or are waterstones really that much faster?

Monte

This is a LOT more expensive than wet-or-dry sandpaper but I found that the fastest way to flatten the back of a chisel or plane blade is on a diamond stone. I bought a DMT coarse/extra coarse and do the majority of the flattening on that - then I go to my water stones (but sandpaper would work just as well).

I didn't buy a diamond stone for many years because of the cost but when I finally did, I was just amazed at how quickly it worked for flattening tools and the water stones. Prior to buying the diamond stone, I tried sandpaper on glass, and even bought the Norton "flattening stone" (which doesn't work). The diamond stone is fast and flat and stays flat. For sharpening, it was the best $100 I ever spent.

Mike

[Ben Rafael]

I use sandpaper up to 1000 then I switch to stones. I've used waterstones and shaptons. I find that the shaptons are well worth the money. They are faster, need flattening less often and dont need to be soaked. The new glass backed shaptons are not as expensive as the ones that are solid ceramic.
If you sharpen a lot stones end up being cheaper than sandpaper, but it might take 10 years to break even. For me, time is money and stones are faster.